Yogi gun

[Ranch Dog]

I ran a comparison of the RG4570, R92 in 454 Casull, and 480 Ruger with two different bullets weights. All this is the Hornady factory ammo with the ballistics formatted to the Rossi barrel lengths.

Yogi Guns.jpg

[Arktikos]

Very impressive! So we are wandering down this road, luckily, with your favorite yogi gun. This fellow starts down the road towards you (I would be more comfortable with him in the road rather than moving off to the side). What happens next. Behavior, his/yours? What dictates that you start shooting and at what distance. I'm seriously asking as any "close combat" must be shadow boxed constantly.

I'd second pricedo's response. I've never shot one but I like the idea of taking out one shoulder first, then get as many kill shots as possible until death . Like he mentioned they can be killed fairly easily but probably not all that quickly. Maybe a shot to the skull would be quicker but hitting the brain is a very small target.

Also there are lots of different bear responses too. I have talked with a few people who were followed by brown bears, one was for miles along the coast line. Then there is stumbling in on a bear defending its food cache or a sow with cubs like that poor forest worker got killed for a few weeks ago. The most dangerous for an encounter is the thickets, alders and what not. Probably walking along the road and seeing one with some distance,say 50 or 100 yds is the best way to run into one. Being on a road sort of makes it your turf and most likely they will just head for the trees and get away. That has been my experience anyhow. . If a bears normal feeding habits have been compromised, either from human interaction or a really bad year for their normal food supply then all bets are off and you had better have a gun capable of killing one and NOT some silly pepper spray! The state of AK statue I have heard says no more than 30 feet for a legal defense of life and property shot. That's not much time to take care of it so probably the law wouldn't be forefront in my mind in a defense situation Last summer we had a sow and 3 cubs breaking and entering several houses in my neighborhood. Finally someone shot the sow and then the cops came and killed the cubs. End of story.

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[Arktikos]

Thanks! If he wandered off the road, how long would you want to proceed if you needed to get down that road. Assuming there might be some wind or other factors that would not allow you to hear any clues as to his movement. Same, no visual clues to where he went.

What would change if you where carrying the R92 in 454 Casull?

I'd tend to want to get out of the area, whether that would be an about face or continue would depend on where I left the vehicle etc. The encounters I have had have all been with the bear yielding which is normally the case I think or there would be a lot more dead hikers then there are!

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[Ranch Dog]

Thanks for your responses as well Arktikos.

I ran another chart like above but using the Veral Smith Penetration Index. At the muzzle the 454 Casull and 45-70, with the ammo specified both deliver 55" of penetration that tapers down to 50" at 100 yards. Both 480 Ruger loads deliver exactly 10" less at both ends; 45" down to 40".

[pricedo]

With a R92/454 the situation would change somewhat...........my boots and pant legs being much fuller of odorous brown stuff at the end of the encounter would be the most apparent change.

A 92/454 wouldn't be my ideal choice cause the 416 Remington Magnum with that 400 grain super tough TSX bullet could smash BOTH shoulders and I'm not sure the 454/92 especially with relatively frangible lead bullets could do that.
The more frangible bullets would have a greater tendency to flatten out and glance off bone (either shoulder or skull) rather than "bite" into bone and smash it.

The vulnerable STOPPING target points on a big bear are the shoulders spine and brain.
A bullet that will absolutely devastate the "boiler room" (heart and lungs) if a frontal or side shot is presented will kill quickly also.

When dealing with dangerous game the priority is STOPPING............IMMEDIATE STOPPING.
Not much point in having the Brownie or Grizz die half an hour later after that big paw has smashed your skull like an egg shell.

WOUNDING shots on a Brownie or Grizz could result in a wooden cross being posted on the side of that road to mark the spot where you died.
I'd use the heaviest X type bullet and push it as fast as I could out of that 454 in a Grizz load.
Lead bullets & heavy bone........not a winning combination.
The most vital areas in a big Brownie that will STOP the bear dead in its tracks immediately are protected by lotsa heavy bone with the exception being the heart/lung area if a frontal or side shot is presented.

Andy Runyan a well known Alaskan guide and outfitter used a 416 Remington Magnum with the thinner jacketed (.0329" I think) 300 grain Barnes Original bullet in his bear loads and that guy killed allotta big brownies in his career.
Andy didn't have software programs to base his judgement on........his choices were based on many years in the bear hunt guiding business and knowing what STOPS brown bears.
His kill total and his living breathing body with all its parts intact were the prima facie evidence of the correctness of his choices.
Face to face with Mr. Brownie is literally a ONE SHOT DEAL.
That 300 grain Barnes Original bullet would absolutely devastate the heart & lungs of a brownie to the consistency of a soupy mush and punch through bone too.

I can't find a single box of the Barnes Original 300 grain SP bullets in 416 any more.
None of the ultra modern TSX bullets around in Andy's day.
I believe Andy died in a car accident......RIP.

If I was in bear country I'd be packing "Big Bupkus" (416 Rem Mag) which isn't that heavy at 7.5 pounds.

[Ranch Dog]

So, the R92 would not be a good bear defense weapon? I was on an elk hunt two years ago , I with my 444T and the other fellow with a M700 chambered in 416 Rem, it made my long barreled "T" feel like a "Trapper" . I know there are all kinds of 416s but isn't it kind of heavy for a hike?

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[pricedo]

The "Clydesdale" (18" barreled Savage Model 116 Alaskan Bear Hunter in 375 Ruger) pushing a 300 grain Barnes TSX bullet and delivering a measly 4800 ft-lbs of ME would be a close second.
Both "Big Bupkus" & the "Clydsdale" could break BOTH shoulders of a big brownie with that critical first shot & stop it DEAD IN ITS TRACKS.
I gotta go for the biggest, bulkiest target with guns that deliver allota horsepower cause I'm not pretending to be the rifle shot under pressure that Andy Runyan was.

**I quote the Muzzle Energy in my dissertation cause at bear ranges the on target energy is so close to the Muzzle Energy that the difference is more academic than practical.

[pricedo]

So, the R92 would not be a good bear defense weapon? I was on an elk hunt two years ago , I with my 444T and the other fellow with a M700 chambered in 416 Rem, it made my long barreled "T" feel like a "Trapper" . I know there are all kinds of 416s but isn't it kind of heavy for a hike?

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My gun "Big Bupkus" was custom built for me from a Remington model 700 by a friend who got killed by falling into a rotating 4 foot saw blade in his logging operation.
The barrel is 21" long, the stock is a one piece routed out & fitted very low weight but super strong Ramline synthetic originally bought for a 300 Win Mag.
The gun spit its original wooden stock on a very cold day at the thin part behind the tang.
The trigger is a transplanted Timney group set at 2 pounds.
The gun has a very fast acquisition Williams aperture sighting system on it.
The gun weighs 7.5 pounds fully dressed and has a beautiful recoil pad on it (don't know the brand....Hubert might have made it himself especially for the gun and every time I shoot the gun I silently thank him).
Does it kick?.........."Big Bupkus' redefines the word recoil...........heavy as expected but thanks to the recoil pad not intolerable......... a slightly sore shoulder is better than being dead.
Needless to say "Big Bupkus" is NOT a plinking gun.

The 92/454 would do the job but it wouldn't be my first choice of a tool for dealing with Mr. Brownie.
I tend to stack the deck heavily in my favor under those circumstances.

[Arktikos]

My brother had one of these that was a real hoot when a bear come around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_Bear_Dog That thing was fast and fearless, and could keep behind a griz, barking and nipping at his ass end until the bear just got the hell out of there. These dogs are starting to be more common to the states and I have thought about getting one at times.. Of course a dog isn't a rifle and I wont go without one, but these guys are pretty much supercharged and fear no bear..

As for a bear gun, yes pricedo once again makes a lot of sense. I have noticed some regions bears are more aggressive towards humans than others. Polars will hunt you always from what I have gleaned, some griz can be pretty unforgiving up north of the arctic circle, and the coastal bears in the Anchorage Kenai area seem to be getting more people wounded but that could just be there are a LOT more people there per sq mile then my region in the SE inside passage. If you fully expect to have to engage a bear, or are hunting the big ones might as well get the best thing going. For me, I don't like adrenalin rushes as much as I used to and I don't care much for bear meat, especially salmon fed so I will pass on hunting them. So that leaves me with a self defense firearm. I want it to be light weight, compact, and easily carried. I do carry a revolver sometimes, 45 Colt, but never in an area known for a lot of bear activity. For that I carry the 45/70 guide gun but I would like something in between, that would be much more effective than a revolver, as well as easier to get shots on target, and yet lighter to carry than the GG. It sure seems like a M-92 454 Casull in trapper form would be the one I would carry most often, probably leave the 45 colt revolver at home much more. Yes it would be a compromise over a 416 or even the 45/70 but everything is a tradeoff. One thing that is not acceptable is to go without anything because you don't want to be burdened by a big and heavy rifle, or have your gun leaning against a tree someplace and cannot get to it..

[Ranch Dog]

Sounds like a nice rifle. Suspect, all said, there is a few dollars in it. ;-)

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