45-70 and IMR 4198

[donhuff]

SO....I got the dies, lee's of course, shell holder for the priming tool. A Lee 457-405 2 hole mold to get me started. And I went ahead and poured a couple hundred of em yesterday, to break the mold in. Boy those 405s sure do suck down the lead!!! I don't think my 20lb Lyman pot could keep up with a six hole mold. Plenty of primers, and lube, and I got some new ammo boxes from MTM, man those are big holes in those boxes! I forgot to get the sizeing die when I got the mold But it's on the way now, along with 200 new starline brass (ouch) they think a lot of that stuff don't they. Was it that high BEFORE the ammo shortage? All looks good, but it seems like I'm missing something NO, I don't mean the powder. I have a good assortment of powder, but not much 3031. I use it in my .458 (powder hog). And it seems like 3031 is the one I see recomended the most. But I do have 3 full pounds of imr4198 that I bought a looooog time ago for AR15's, then I discovered 748, and the 4198 has been sitting on the shelf ever since. I see in my old loading books that it is right there close to what 3031 can do. And since we arent loading to the max like for a Ruger #1, it ought to do fine till I burn up a couple of cans full. UNLESS you all can tell me of some reason not to use it like bad accuracy or some other problems.

Still can't remember what that was! Anyway, I know lots of you have plinking loads for the 45-70, but that aint what I'm looking for.I have 22s, 357s, 44,45 colt to handle plinking. And no, I will probably never use it for hunting. But I want it to be a BIG boomer. I want women and kids to run in fear when it goes off. I want the tall men at the range, shooting 22s and 223s and 9mm tuperware guns, to hang there heads in shame at the sight of little, me and that little gun, making so much noise and recoil. Yeah I know it's silly. But I'm like that.


OK so now we have 4198...Lee 457-405, and a Rio Grande give me your recipes please............rio grande? Now I remember,... I don't have a 45-70 gun Dangit, I'll get back to yall a little later, I got to go do something.

[joec]

I load mostly using 405 gr cast bullets by Badman Bullets mostly for plinking/target practice. My powders of choice for the 405 Cast bullets is IMR-4198 or 3031, but I also like Reloader 7 and Accurate 5744. Now for plinking I like 12.8 to 13 gr of trailboss behind the same 405 badman soft cast bullet. Some others I like are the Oregon Trail Laser Cast, Tombstone - Doc Holiday @ Marlin forum as well as here from time to time. His are 430gr Gas checked and 535gr Gas checked both WFN very similar to Beartooth bullets. I've also have about 350 405 gr bullets cast a by Western Nevada Bullets who is no longer in business but got them for a cheap price. I also have about 100 of the Remington JSP bullets in 405 gr. Ranch Dog also has a mold he designed for 350 gr gc bullets that can be bought from Carolina Bullets but I don't mess much with the lighter stuff. Starline has 45-70 brass now in stock at $116 for 250, $202 for 500, and $378.50 for 1000. I bought 500 from them when I got my RG 45-70.

According to Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook for Springfield levels using IMR-4198 would be 31.5 gr @ 1312 fps to 35 gr @ 1463 fps. For modern Lever guns 36.5 @ 1533 fps to 40.5 @ 1717 fps. Oh and I size my gas checked cast stuff a .458 but leave the soft cast brass at .459 with not much difference in group sizes at 50 yards. Oh and for plinking I load to Springfield levels or Trailboss.

[donhuff]

Thanks Joe,

I use to have a copy of the Lyman cast bullet loads, but it was a big book best I can remember. But I cant find it now since I have moved.

I see that several people recomend H322 also, for stout loads. I knew I had a can, so when I went and checked......there may be enough in the can to load 6-7 rounds. Seems I have a lot of cans of powder, with almost no powder in each one of them .

Since you mentioned them. Do you NEED gas checks with the 45-70. I try to not use them as it's something else to have to do to build a load. I know it will depend alot on the velocity. But do your strong loads get up to that level?

[Missionary]

Greetings
You have done your basic measurements of the throat and groove ?
Did not see the mix you are using either. This all is going to make a difference how that lead gets squirted out the muzzle.
Been lobbing . 460+ slugs down range for 30 years now and you really need to be sure the cast bullet is the proper diameter.. even if you are using a GC. In my 45-70's generally my cast is .0015 - .002 over groove. Your throat area will possibly be generous so you want the lead bullet to fill that as much as possible. Gas blowby the lead bullet base is not good for accuracy. So do some looking before loading. You probably are going to be far better off using as cast diameter rather than sizing them down too small.
Mike in Peru

[donhuff]

Hi Mike,

No, I have not measured it yet cause I don't have the gun yet! I'm just trying to get some rounds ready for when I do get it, which will be in the next couple of weeks.

I guess you mean lead mix? Wheel weights with a little extra tin added.

I'm getting a .459 sizer die so I wont be sizing down but just a little. I had to beagle the mold to get it up enough to where i could size it at all. I like to have a good full size, smooth bottom band on the bullet, even if I have to open the mold up a little with a chucking reamer to get it bigger. The bottom band does most of the sealing I think, like the top ring on a piston. I have done this with a new Lyman 4 hole 429-421 mold cause they cast right on 429, and I like them sized to .431. I got the .459 cause of the measurements other people have posted in the "bullet casting" section. Most say that theirs measures .457. On another forum I have read where RD sez that the throat and chamber are more true to SAAMI spec, and not so oversize like the marlins are. And he recomends 458-459. I know each gun has it own sizes because of machining tolerances, but most say that Rossi seem to hold their specs pretty close. I got's to have a sizer die anyway, so I can get some lube on the bullets.

I know my 357/92 has a "tight" chamber. Not really tight, but more to what it ought to be. I size 38 bullets to .359 cause my blackhawk measures .358, But depending on the thickness of the brass, some of theese loads will get half way into the chamber and then start to bind a little. You can force them on in without too much force but the hull will have rub spots on them. I thought about running a reamer into the chamber to open it up a little so i dont have to have two sizes of slugs. I poured a cast of the chamber, and the rear half was about .002 bigger than the forward half. The same bullets that are tight in the Rossi, have a lot of clearance in the Rugers cylinder.

I've read your comments over on CastBoolits about your 357/92. Very helpful.

[m1895g]

My 45-70 prefers a 430gr paper patched bullet over 52gr of AA2495. 1.5" for 3 at 100 yards and enough power for anything I might need to shoot out here in western Kansas.