My 92 in .357 mag has been completely gone through by me. I finally found some time to diagnose why my rifle wouldn't chamber Fiocchi FMJTC and XTP ammunition. I cured the problem for the most part by polishing the cartridge guides an carrier. The FMJTC's cycle without a hitch and the XTP's run through okay, but occasionally one gets bound up entering the chamber. This is a vast improvement, because prior to this recent effort neither cartridge type would ever chamber without some finesse of the action. My plan is to run it this way for now to see if reliability (i.e. chambering/cycling) improves with use. My rifle has just under 100 rounds through it now. Has anyone else taken a similar approach?
FWIW - it's my intention to only use copper jacketed ammunition - both factory and my reloads.
What has been your experience after action work?
-
Missionary
- Founding Member
- Posts: 588
- Joined: 21 Mar 2012 15:47
- Location: Peru
- Has thanked: 9 times
- Been thanked: 145 times
Re: What has been your experience after action work?
Good morning
Any time we do any "clean up" on a piece of machinery we want it to work better or at least more smootly with out damaging other items. The work you did obviously was not in vain and ended with the desired results even if not perfect.
Some items to look at further. When you cycle a round then eject it.. look carefully at the cartrige. You should see marks on the cartridge where it rubs, scrapes and clunks. Those are good indicators. Any deep cuts in the brass or bullet ? That is a burr. The chamber mouth can be very sharp and cut into bullet noses. All parts that touch the cartridge in any way must be looked at.
The ammo length can be an issue. Measure those that feed well against those that hang up. Hold up to a light sorce the two rounds together and look at the bullet nose shape.. flat blunt noses or even less round bullet noses can be a problem. Case mouths from one companies load to another.. are they both crimped the same ?
Bottom line... There is a reason the old BP cartriges for lever actions were made with short round nose lead bullets sitting out there. That short well curved nose guided the cartidge through the machinery faithfully. Because it was soft lead it would take some abuse and still get the cartridge chambered. Because it was soft lead it would expand on target. There was no need to have hollow points or large flat noses. Because BP was compressed into the case below the flat based lead bullet it was a near solid object that no reasonable amount of pushing on the nose was going to seat the lead bullet much deeper. The case and bullet were purposely made small so it would flawlessly feed. Plus it also had to deal with BP fouling.. another story.
Did you ever wonder why the old pistol cartridge lever action 1892 used bottle neck design cartridges ? The shape is very condusive to good feeding.
So here we are today... trying to use every bullet shape,length and design under the sun in a new piece of machinery and wondering why it hangs up. What we are attempting is similar to taking a average low compression engine and making it run with the factory tuned drag racers. It will take time and learning.
Mike in Peru
Any time we do any "clean up" on a piece of machinery we want it to work better or at least more smootly with out damaging other items. The work you did obviously was not in vain and ended with the desired results even if not perfect.
Some items to look at further. When you cycle a round then eject it.. look carefully at the cartrige. You should see marks on the cartridge where it rubs, scrapes and clunks. Those are good indicators. Any deep cuts in the brass or bullet ? That is a burr. The chamber mouth can be very sharp and cut into bullet noses. All parts that touch the cartridge in any way must be looked at.
The ammo length can be an issue. Measure those that feed well against those that hang up. Hold up to a light sorce the two rounds together and look at the bullet nose shape.. flat blunt noses or even less round bullet noses can be a problem. Case mouths from one companies load to another.. are they both crimped the same ?
Bottom line... There is a reason the old BP cartriges for lever actions were made with short round nose lead bullets sitting out there. That short well curved nose guided the cartidge through the machinery faithfully. Because it was soft lead it would take some abuse and still get the cartridge chambered. Because it was soft lead it would expand on target. There was no need to have hollow points or large flat noses. Because BP was compressed into the case below the flat based lead bullet it was a near solid object that no reasonable amount of pushing on the nose was going to seat the lead bullet much deeper. The case and bullet were purposely made small so it would flawlessly feed. Plus it also had to deal with BP fouling.. another story.
Did you ever wonder why the old pistol cartridge lever action 1892 used bottle neck design cartridges ? The shape is very condusive to good feeding.
So here we are today... trying to use every bullet shape,length and design under the sun in a new piece of machinery and wondering why it hangs up. What we are attempting is similar to taking a average low compression engine and making it run with the factory tuned drag racers. It will take time and learning.
Mike in Peru
Way down south in Arequipa, Peru till June 2020.
-
Ranch Dog
- Site Admin
- Posts: 9399
- Joined: 23 Jan 2012 07:44
- Location: Inez, TX
- Has thanked: 1838 times
- Been thanked: 2281 times
Re: What has been your experience after action work?
Well said Mike! Of course those old guys did not have to prepare for the zombie apocalypse, they're only worry waas about a dependable round of ammunition to feed the family.
Michael
-
pricedo
- 2000 Shots
- Posts: 2509
- Joined: 31 Jan 2012 10:36
- Location: Dual Citizen (United States & Canada)
- Has thanked: 56 times
- Been thanked: 234 times
Re: What has been your experience after action work?
Ranch Dog wrote:Well said Mike! Of course those old guys did not have to prepare for the zombie apocalypse, they're only worry waas about a dependable round of ammunition to feed the family.
To the zombies most of them would be accepted as just another one of the ole gang anyway.........more like a reunion than an attack.
The zombies aren't interested in chewing on carcasses older, tougher & generally grumpier than they are themselves.
Zombies avoid Rossi owners anyway cause they have really strong arms from working on their guns 24/7 & could tear a zombie limb from limb.
LIFE MEMBER - NRA & GOA
-
Model 52
- 250 Shots
- Posts: 338
- Joined: 04 Feb 2013 18:29
- Location: NC
- Has thanked: 8 times
- Been thanked: 122 times
Re: What has been your experience after action work?
I'll expand a bit and clarify a point on the original cartridges used in the Model 92.
The. 44-40, .38-40, .32-20 and .25-20 are all mildly tapered and bottle necked cartridges. The primary reason for this design trait was to allow the cartridges (originally designed for black powder) to be extracted easier as the taper means the entire case pulls away from the chamber as soon as the case is moved backwards any distance at all. A secondary reason, provided by the bottle neck, was to allow the cartridge to seal the chamber quickly to prevent gas coming back into the receiver. A bottle neck in a low pressure BP case provides for an earlier seal reducing gas migrating back along the case, keeping the case and chamber cleaner in addition to reducing any gas reaching the receiver. The easier feeding of a mildly bottle necked case was just icing on the cake and was incidental.
In comparison the .45 Colt was the .44 Magnum of the BP era and was designed that way intentionally using a straight un tapered case in .45 caliber. No taper meant more volume - and more difficult extraction in a BP round. However since it was designed for an ejector rod pistol, increased extraction effort was not an issue as the ejector rod could provide what ever force was required. In that regard the rim was only required for head spacing purposes and was thus much smaller than the rims on the .44-40, .38-40, .32-20 and .25-20. A small rim in this case was beneficial as it meant the cylinder diameter and the weight of the pistol could be kept smaller.
Straight wall cartridges were just not a viable option for the Model 92 until the disappearance of black powder. What's amazing however is how well straight wall cartridges like the .45 Colt, .44 Mag and .357 Mag feed in the Model 92 given that it was not originally designed for them, due to the reasons noted above.
The. 44-40, .38-40, .32-20 and .25-20 are all mildly tapered and bottle necked cartridges. The primary reason for this design trait was to allow the cartridges (originally designed for black powder) to be extracted easier as the taper means the entire case pulls away from the chamber as soon as the case is moved backwards any distance at all. A secondary reason, provided by the bottle neck, was to allow the cartridge to seal the chamber quickly to prevent gas coming back into the receiver. A bottle neck in a low pressure BP case provides for an earlier seal reducing gas migrating back along the case, keeping the case and chamber cleaner in addition to reducing any gas reaching the receiver. The easier feeding of a mildly bottle necked case was just icing on the cake and was incidental.
In comparison the .45 Colt was the .44 Magnum of the BP era and was designed that way intentionally using a straight un tapered case in .45 caliber. No taper meant more volume - and more difficult extraction in a BP round. However since it was designed for an ejector rod pistol, increased extraction effort was not an issue as the ejector rod could provide what ever force was required. In that regard the rim was only required for head spacing purposes and was thus much smaller than the rims on the .44-40, .38-40, .32-20 and .25-20. A small rim in this case was beneficial as it meant the cylinder diameter and the weight of the pistol could be kept smaller.
Straight wall cartridges were just not a viable option for the Model 92 until the disappearance of black powder. What's amazing however is how well straight wall cartridges like the .45 Colt, .44 Mag and .357 Mag feed in the Model 92 given that it was not originally designed for them, due to the reasons noted above.
-
Xshot
- Posts: 125
- Joined: 18 Sep 2012 20:36
- Location: Wisconsin
- Has thanked: 3 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: What has been your experience after action work?
The weather broke a few days back and I got the chance to shoot my 92 (.357). I had many piles of snow 5 - 6 high around my property and the sun melt left many jagged peaks, which presented plenty of targets. Had a blast blowing them up! The best part was now of the FMJTC's or XTP factory rounds hung up. I think I answered my own question and can see my 92 just getting smoother and better with use. It was important to me to get these rounds to function properly in my 92. I guess I just don't like restrictions. Besides, there are situations where I need the higher MV and flatter trajectory, jacketed bullets provide, for clean kills a little further out. Being a reloader, there's not doubt I will experiment with cast lead bullet in the future. The way things are going it may be the only thing available.