What is this?

[Steelburner]

I have a bit of a problem. My new in box 92 .44 Magnum carbine suddenly quit latching the lever properly. I found the lever Friction Stud was not extending to its proper position. I took its pin and stud out, captured the spring, and checked to see if there was any junk still in the hole in the lower pin boss, where the friction stud is located.

I didn't see any junk but I could see threads! Apparently, there was a plug at the far end of the hole that came loose and fell somewhere on this planet, I assume.

First: is that a valid assumption? Are there internal threads in the lever pin boss to keep the friction stud parts inside?

Second: if it's a valid assumption, where can I get one of these 'plugs' and what are its thread values?

Hoping someone knows, I am:

Steelburner

[Reese-Mo]

Should be no threads. No plug. There is a ledge in there to capture the spring. Concentric with the ledge is a through hole, which allows poking out the friction stud should it get jammed inward.

[Steelburner]

Checked it again. The spring is obviously smaller than the base of the friction stud and there are very obvious threads in the rest of the through hole.

This may be a modification of the older system, don't you think? That spring, when I rescued it, was way down in the 'threads'.

But I'll re-install the spring, stop-pin and friction stud to see how it does.

Thanks for answering.

Steelburner

[Archer]

A little more about the NIB gun?
Is it purchased NEW from a shop recent production or is it NIB as in sold as new old stock or new one owner stuck in the back of a safe for the last 20 years?

Pictures of the gun, the parts, the threaded hole?

"This may be a modification of the older system, don't you think? That spring, when I rescued it, was way down in the 'threads'."

My question is WHY?
Why change the production steps from a simple operation of a pair of drilling operations on the same axis to a threaded hole that requires a second threaded plug which obviously can get lost?
The plug that probably has to have some driving feature? That probably has to be manually installed and potentially manually tweaked or fit? That probably requires some sort of thread locker to keep it from rattling loose? That is an invitation for the end user to remove it and lose it?

From an engineering and manufacturing standpoint it sounds like a modification done by a end user or smith to correct a problem that might not have really existed (or might have resulted from lack of repair parts?) OR assuming it came that way from the factory a design that would benefit from being updated to the lower cost simpler manufacturing steps used in Reese-Mo's gun. Part of the reason he mentions the way that feature is manufactured on his gun is he recently fabricated a new lever lock stud to solve an issue he was having. You can find his thread around here somewhere probably in either the gunsmithing board or this 92 board.

The spring should be smaller dia than the stud/bore as it is compressed it is going to expand somewhat in diameter. The spring should NOT in my estimation work down into a threaded area. More friction and wear on the spring and no way to regulate whether or not it still acts as a spring or just gets jammed in the threads? NOT a good idea.

[Reese-Mo]

You sure the threads aren't heavy machine/tooling scars? I got a NIB .44 R92 a few months ago, and have had the parts out of the lever more than a few times - no threads, no plug.

[Steelburner]

The rifle is supposedly new production, bought from Elk County Ammo and Arms. SN: 7CR038555N.
It's a plain blue-black 20" carbine in .44 Magnum and Special. I have NO photos of the carbine.

I bought a replacement spring, stop pin, and friction stud from Jack First. The spring in the Jack First kit is much larger in diameter and just barely fits into the stud-hole. However, when the stud is placed atop it and the pin installed, the FIRST USE of the lever causes the larger spring to push down into the vicinity of the threads and stay there.
I'm not equipped to photograph the threads on this lever; I can tell you that from an early career as a race-car mechanic, I am not seeing 'phantom' threads in that hole. I know threads. These are metric and will easily take a grub set-screw, I believe.

I have a selection of small grub screws in metric sizes coming by mail. Sometime during that following week I will see if I can find one to fill that hole and stop the springs from attempting an escape. If I cannot find one, I'll eat that crow. IF I find one that fits I'll adjust it and then use blue LocTite to encourage it to stay where it is.

Until next week,

Steelburner

[Reese-Mo]

That is interesting.

The screw approach will work, especially if for some reason there are real standard threads in there. Keep in mind, even with metric sizes, "gun threads" are often much finer pitch that normal run of the mill. That is, while you might find a 4x.75 in a better hardware store, gun threads might be 4x.5 or 4x.4 (a real odd size, but that's guns for ya). <---- Sizes made up for example. In good ol "USA" threads we see 6-50 and 6-48 threads on guns, 8-48 too.

Should threading be a no-go affair, there are alternatives. I think you're easiest alternative is a simple cross pin in the hole. The hole is supposed to be a "through hole" to facilitate a stuck friction stud. Just a guess, but I can imagine that Browning knew about rusted in, or crudded in parts in a blind hole, and took simple pains to avoid issues (like the stepped hole). Installing a cross pin at approximately the point the "ledge" occurs (easy to approximate) will prevent spring "push thru" and you're problem is solved. My new R92 had its friction stud spring "trimmed" at the factory (it seems). Dunno if this will help

https://www.rossi-rifleman.com/viewtopi ... =44&t=7045

But if you use a bit of semi hard drill rod, you can upset one end, and put the upset end on the right side of the hole you make for it. It will stay fast, and by long custom, pins and dovetails are drifted out from left to right, so keeping the upset side on the right will be the way to go.

There are more complex ways to correct, but... that would be the easiest. In the event of a really stuck stud/spring you'd just have to drift out the pin to have full access to the through hole again, in which to "unstuck" things before cleaning 'em up and reassembly.

In either case, as you've probably noted, the lever needs to come out. Not the worst chore in the world. Just be glad its not a Model 1894, those are loads more fiddly!

What I'd not do, is overthink things, try to re-thread an odd hole. Adding another layer of complexity to something so simple is not a bit of "elegant engineering" but just an exercise in self absorption. I get that way (the latter) often, and have to self check.

As an aside - manufacturing methods......

Japanese - the mechanism can only be adjusted with a factory jig or synchronizer, of which only two exist, and they're at the assembly plant.

Swiss - the mechanism has each and every point of obscure tolerance adjustable with set screws of coarse and fine adjustment, and each set screw has a cross gib screw to hold it in place.

Germany - the mechanism has a set screw at each point of adjustment

British - the mechanism is needlessly complex, and you just install parts of varying tolerance until it works, sort of, if you coax it with a bit of lubricant.

American - the mechanism is loose as can be, needs little adjustment, which if absolutely necessary can be accomplished with pliers and/or hammer.

Russian - the mechanism is unfathomably loose, inaccurate, and if adjustment is needed, you drag out a torch, hammer and coarse file.

[Reese-Mo]

The rifle is supposedly new production, bought from Elk County Ammo and Arms. SN: 7CR038555N.

For what its worth, 7Cr04455XX is my serial, and 20", blue, round barrel, carbine (not short rifle). It became available at an online retailer, which I immediately ordered. I think I got it... three months ago. USA import of Rossi is all over the place these days, and Braztech/RossiUSA is really not the best to deal with.

[Archer]

Set screws and odd ball fasteners (say vented set screws with a hole through the middle?) and/or thread sizes: McMaster Carr might be your friend. Their catalog online is much more detailed and selection is more extensive than Grainger. In my business they work for 'standard' fasteners and can even provide certs but about half to three quarters of the time I'm looking at aviation specialty suppliers.

[Steelburner]

"Waiter? Give me a giant dish of crow, please. Yes. Crow. No, you can take the feathers, beak and feet off. Yes. Well-done, please."

You guys were exactly right. My problem was a too-small spring that eventually was pushed down to the clean-out hole. I bought parts from Jack First and his spring did the job. His replacement friction stud was just slightly too large to go into the lever.

So I want to sincerely apologize to all of you who said things to TRY to put me on the right track, when I swaggered and blustered and made a fool of myself.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa.

Steelburner