Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

The Rossi Model R92, a lightweight carbine for Cowboy Action, hunting, or plinking! Includes Rossi manufactured Interarms, Navy Arms, and Puma trade names.
CKAT
Posts: 9
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 10:13
Location: Sibir
Has thanked: 3 times

Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by CKAT »

Good day to all!
I need your help as more experienced shooters.
I have the opportunity to buy Rossi 92 brass with an octagonal barrel in the caliber of 45 lc, but I need a powerful shot, at the level of 454 casull. And as a result, questions arise:
1) Will this rifle withstand hot hinges in the region of 2500-3200 joules?
2) We have a myth that the brass version is weaker than the black or stainless steel version, is this true?
3) Is it possible to cut the sleeves 454 to sizes 45 (they say that 454 are stronger) or will everything be normal?
4) Are there rifles in 454 with an octagonal barrel?
5) Are there versions 454 of brass?
6) What is the difference between version 454 and 45?
7) Which caliber is more accurate?
Thanks in advance for all the answers!
All hope is only for you, since we have very little information on them and I even had to look for information in other countries.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Всем доброго времени суток!
Нужна ваша помощь, как более опытных стрелков.
У меня есть возможность купить России 92 латунь с восьмигранным стволом в калибре 45 лс, но мне необходим мощный выстрел, на уровне 454 касул. И как следствие возникают вопросы:
1) Выдержит ли данная винтовка горячие навески в районе 2500-3200 джоулей?
2) У нас ходит миф, что версия из латуни более слабая нежели из черной или нержавеющей стали, правда ли это?
3) Можно ли обрезать гильзы 454 до размеров 45 (говорят, что 454 более крепкие) или и так все нормально будет?
4) Бывают ли винтовrи в 454 с восьмигранным стволом?
5) Бывают ли версии 454 из латуни?
6) Чем вообще отличается версия 454 от 45?
7) Какой калибр более точный?
Заранее спасибо всем за ответы!
Вся надежда только на Вас, так как у нас очень мало информации по ним и мне даже пришлось искать информацию в других странах.
Archer
2000 Shots
2000 Shots
Posts: 3942
Joined: 04 Feb 2014 05:30
Location: SoCal Loco
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 610 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by Archer »

1) Will this rifle withstand hot hinges loaded rounds in the region of 2500-3200 joules?

2500-3200 joules?
How about decomposing the energy into a bullet weight and velocity? Recall most of us are in the U.S. and although it is just math most of us aren't going to think in terms of energy when we talk about ammo.
IF my conversion program is giving me the right numbers the stated box energy for 454 dangerous game ammo is right about the lower number you cite. (probably using numbers from a 6" revolver barrel.) That's about an 80% increase in the same companies dangerous +P .45 Colt load

You are dealing with two different rounds. The 92 action is quite strong but the action does lock up on the back of the bolt which can allow the brass to stretch somewhat and may result in the brass failing. .45 Colt is generally loaded light in the U.S. for two reasons. 1) The number of older firearms produced when .45 Colt was a black powder cartridge. 2) A good portion of the shooters of .45 Colt are cowboy action types who rarely shoot full power loads. You CAN hot load .45 Colt and it is possible the 92 can handle it but it isn't something everyone will recommend. I have my doubts anyone is going to recommend loading it to the same sort of levels as hot .454 loads.

IF you do decide to hot load a .45 Colt gun made by Rossi I recommend doing so very gradually. There have been Rossi guns produced with or modified for feeding where the chamber was unsupported and brass shot in those guns with NORMAL pressures have shown up bulged. Shooting a high pressure round out of such a gun would not be wise. Work up slow looking for ANY signs of high pressure problems.

The 454 Rossi rifle has a threaded magazine tube that is treaded into the receiver. The .45 Colt is simply set into a counterbore and held in place by the barrel band and mag cap screw. The heavy recoil of the .454 resulted in the tube backing out and the change to the threaded tube. I am not certain exactly what if any other changes were made to the Rossi to accommodate the .454.

2) Brass is absolutely less strong than steel. No myth. You can simply look up a copy of Mil Handbook 5 and check the strength numbers on likely alloys yourself. If you have the same volume of steel vs. brass used in firearms especially modern composition with modern heat treatments the steel should be much stronger.

3) You can trim .454 cartridge cases to .45 Colt length. You MAY have to do further modifications such as inside neck turning or reaming in order for the brass to easily accept the bullet.

4) I am not aware of the distribution of .454 production. I know they made the 20" RB but I am not sure what else they produced.

5) Not to my knowledge and if I were intending to load hot I would avoid them.

6) See above for the mag tube change, the chamber is obviously cut a bit longer.
Read THIS: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... list&c=159

7) Should not be a radical difference between the basic accuracy of either round.

What is the intended purpose of the rifle?
Have you considered other options? .44 Mag? .45-70? .444 Marlin?
CKAT
Posts: 9
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 10:13
Location: Sibir
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by CKAT »

+1 Forgot about the different measurement systems we have ....
2500 - 3200 joules = 36000 - 46000 psi
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Забыл о разных системах измерений у нас....
2500-3200 джоулей = 36000 - 46000 psi
Archer
2000 Shots
2000 Shots
Posts: 3942
Joined: 04 Feb 2014 05:30
Location: SoCal Loco
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 610 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by Archer »

CKAT wrote:+1 Forgot about the different measurement systems we have ....
2500 - 3200 joules = 36000 - 46000 psi
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Забыл о разных системах измерений у нас....
2500-3200 джоулей = 36000 - 46000 psi
Yes, different unit systems but even there you have a difference in terms:
Joules is energy with the units (1N*1m)=(kg*m^2/sec^2)~(.7377 ftlb)
Used to measure either muzzle energy or energy at range or impact and varies with barrel length.)

PSI is pressure lb/in^2 ~(703 kg/m^2 or .0703 kg/cm^2)
Used to measure chamber pressure.
(A lot of our old data is listed in CUP copper units of pressure and that's yet a different can of worms.)

The .44 Magnum pressure limit is right at 36 KPSI (max average pressure). The Rossi handles that without a problem. I would not be loading beyond those limits for .44 Mag.

I will not recommend loading .45 Colt to those values. It might be fine but I will not recommend it just like I won't recommend loading .45-70 to the same levels as .444 Marlin simply because both of them are chambered in a Marlin 95 action. Assuming the same dimensions everywhere else there's a tiny bit less metal in the .45 chambered rifle vs. the .44 chambered version. Given the increased pressure of the proof load it is unlikely the gun will fail due to the slight amount of material difference between the .44 and the .45 but I choose to retain that extra safety margin. That is the lower limit of your range above.

.454 pressure limit is right at 65 KPSI IF there's no other changes between the .45 Colt and the .454 other than the mag differences and the chamber dimensions then any of the guns should survive the higher pressures you mention BUT that does not mean they won't wear faster or that the magazine system will not be compromised by the recoil impulse.

https://saami.org/technical-information ... -drawings/

One more thing to consider, if you intend to run very heavy bullets those may or may not feed as the OAL of the cartridge may not work through the action.

We do have some warm .45 Colt and .454 shooters here who may chime in with more info.
CKAT
Posts: 9
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 10:13
Location: Sibir
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by CKAT »

I am very grateful to you for such a detailed answer!
But the problem remains that we have almost no information on the models of Rоssi and their differences = (
It seems to me that the version with a faceted barrel has a thinner chamber than the version with a round barrel, which causes me concern ....
And I did not find Rossi 92 454 on the Internet with a faceted barrel, probably this is interconnected with the wall thickness ....
Do you happen to come across such versions of the rifle?
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Я очень сильно признателен Вам за столь подробный ответ!
Но сохраняется проблема в том, что у нас почти что нет информации по моделям Росси и их отличиям =(
Мне кажется, что версия с граненным стволом имеет более тонкий патронник, нежели версия с круглым стволом, что и вызывает у меня опасения....
А Росси 92 454 я не нашел в интернете с граненным стволом, наверное это взаимосвязанно с толщиной стенок....
Вам, случайно не попадались такие версии винтовки?
User avatar
GasGuzzler
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2745
Joined: 02 Nov 2015 19:54
Location: Cooke County, TX
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 451 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by GasGuzzler »

I have never seen nor heard of a Rossi in .454 with a brass receiver OR an octagon barrel.
__________________________________________________________________________________________
I've always been crazy but it's kept me from going insane.
Archer
2000 Shots
2000 Shots
Posts: 3942
Joined: 04 Feb 2014 05:30
Location: SoCal Loco
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 610 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by Archer »

In the .44 Magnum:

the octagonal barrel flat to flat is ~.810"-.814"

Round barrel directly ahead of the receiver ~.960" tapering to the approximate flat to flat of the octagonal about 3.16" ahead of the receiver and continuing to taper on at least to the fore end band.

Rear sight cuts are in about the same location from the receiver.

I have no idea what the diameter of the threaded portion of the barrels are.
Archer
2000 Shots
2000 Shots
Posts: 3942
Joined: 04 Feb 2014 05:30
Location: SoCal Loco
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 610 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by Archer »

GasGuzzler wrote:I have never seen nor heard of a Rossi in .454 with a brass receiver OR an octagon barrel.
I don't think they put it out in an octagonal, but I could be wrong.
All they offer at the moment appears to be a 20" SS so you wouldn't be interested in it unless they nitrided it or maybe cerakoted it in armor black.
CKAT
Posts: 9
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 10:13
Location: Sibir
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by CKAT »

Thank you all for the answers)
Another question, what kind of game can I hunt with a 45 factory cartridge? or is it just for entertaining shooting?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Всем спасибо за ответы)
Еще вопрос, на какую дичь возможно охотиться с 45 заводским патроном? или это только для развлекательной стрельбы?
CKAT
Posts: 9
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 10:13
Location: Sibir
Has thanked: 3 times

Re: Need urgent help choosing Rossi! / Нужна срочная помощь!

Post by CKAT »

In general, the choice is between ....
______________________________________________________________________________________________
Вообще выбор стоит между....
Image
454
and
Image
The brass rifle has an octagonal barrel of 45
Post Reply