Been shooting a bunch of my Lil'Gun powdered .357mag loads in my leverguns and I decided to give something new a try. I have a lot of 158grn Berry's plated bullets I've used in low power pistol loads and I thought I'd give them a try with Lil'gun as reduced load plinking rds for my rifle and carbine. As they have a soft lead core with a thin plated surface, I decided to drop the powder charge band from 16.0-18.0 Hodgdon lists that I use with my jacketed 158grn Zero JSP bullets down a full 2.0grns to account for the softer 'lead like' plated bullets.
I talked to Hodgdon before I loaded anything and they don't have the low load caution with Lil'Gun like they do with H110 so I figure I'll see how it goes. Anyway, I made up 30rds of test ammo this morning with 14.0grns of Lil'Gun and 158grn Berry's plated bullets lit by a WSR primer in some Starline brass with an OAL of 1.580". In addition, I made up 65rds of the same but with 14.6grns of Lil'Gun to see how each load shoots. (I had a pack with 95 WSR primers so that's why I picked the odd number.)
I'm looking for group size, not speed so I'll be shooting at my standard, bowling pins at 200yds to see if they are any good. Besides just range plinking, I'm looking for some loads to take out plinking a pine cones and possibly small game as I've seen that the plated bullets do well there. Further, I'm also looking to see how the 14.6grn loads work in my tang and globe sighted 24" rifle out at 300yds as I'm particularly fond of shooting at that distance with it.
I can't go to the range today as I'm busy but we'll see how things turn out soon.
Trying a New Load in My Rossis
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rondog
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Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
I see you're in Littleton, wondering where you shoot at? I live in Parker, CO, and shoot at the Ben Lomond Gun Club out east past Kiowa, by Ramah. It's a drive, but well worth it!
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Archer
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Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
I'm looking forward to the report.
I've loaded Rainier and Xtreme in the past in .44 Mag with warm loads of 2400 and gotten acceptable results out of the 24" Winchester 94 but I've not really run any through the Rossi and I've not tried .357 yet.
I think I've got a couple K Xtreme bullets lying around for the .357 however, along with about a dozen lbs of H110 and maybe 4lbs of Lil' gun.
I've loaded Rainier and Xtreme in the past in .44 Mag with warm loads of 2400 and gotten acceptable results out of the 24" Winchester 94 but I've not really run any through the Rossi and I've not tried .357 yet.
I think I've got a couple K Xtreme bullets lying around for the .357 however, along with about a dozen lbs of H110 and maybe 4lbs of Lil' gun.
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Deleted User 327
Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
So, I went to the range yesterday afternoon and gave my loads a try. I should correct something in my original post I misstated. I didn't load up 65rds with 14.6grns, I actually loaded up 30rds with 14.3grns and then the remaining 35rds with 14.6grns to give me enough of each to get an idea how they would shoot in both my carbine and rifle as well as in a cold barrel and a hot one. Sorry for the goof on the first post.
Out at the range I didn't bother with my chrono as I'll get to that when I decide upon a load I like. As I said, I'm not looking for velocity, but good accuracy in a lighter load for range and plinking use. Anyway, I started with the 14.0grn 158grn Berry's plated loads and wasn't surprised to find that in my 24" rifle, at 300yds the velocity was so low that they dropped too much to use at that range. In the carbine at 200yds, they produced OK accuracy but not what the full power loads would do. Recoil was mild, especially in the 1lb 12oz heavier rifle (24" barrel octagon barrel adds lots of weight).
Next up was the 14.3grn 158grn Berry's plated loads and they worked well in both Rossis with accuracy increasing to near full load levels on the bowling pins at 200yds, especially with the carbine, but I still saw some significant drop with the rifle at 300yds so I'll hold off on final judgement as I want a load I can use in both my carbine and rifle.
Finally, I shot the 14.6grn 158grn Berry's plated loads and I was pleased with them in both platforms. Even though I still have more drop at 300yds with the rifle, it's on the verge of acceptable for me and at 200yds, both platforms produced good accuracy on the pins. Actually, I have to say that accuracy was probably much better than I expected. I've heard that plated bullets aren't known for great accuracy and in truth, these aren't quite as good as my Zero JSP, however, I was pleased enough with them that I'll definitely be using them for range and plinking use as the price is compelling.
The Recoil of the 14.6grn loads compared to the 14.0grn loads increased more than I thought that 0.6grns would produce but it still is lower than with a full load under a jacketed 158grn bullet. However, I attribute that to the fact that I'm shooting what are essentially, lead bullets pressure wise. I consider that at 14.6grns, I'm likely above the mid level pressure one would see with 17+grns with a jacketed bullet.
As to GunnyMack's comment on his Henry's copper fouling, when I was cleaning them up last night, even with my bore light I couldn't see any evidence of any copper fouling in either my carbine or rifle. Plated bullets do require care in loading to ensure that one doesn't cut the plating but other than that, they are quite easy to use. With 10s of thousands of rds I've loaded in 38spl,.357mag, 40s&w, 45acp, 45 Colt, 10mm, 45 Super pistols as well as M1 Carbine and 30-30 plinking loads using plated bullets, I feel I know how to deal with them.
My conclusion is that I may see what a 14.8 or 14.9grn load does before I settle on a final selection but I'm pleased with the results so far. They worked better than expected, didn't cause any issues, fed very smoothly, and just worked. And the bowling pins didn't notice any difference either.
Out at the range I didn't bother with my chrono as I'll get to that when I decide upon a load I like. As I said, I'm not looking for velocity, but good accuracy in a lighter load for range and plinking use. Anyway, I started with the 14.0grn 158grn Berry's plated loads and wasn't surprised to find that in my 24" rifle, at 300yds the velocity was so low that they dropped too much to use at that range. In the carbine at 200yds, they produced OK accuracy but not what the full power loads would do. Recoil was mild, especially in the 1lb 12oz heavier rifle (24" barrel octagon barrel adds lots of weight).
Next up was the 14.3grn 158grn Berry's plated loads and they worked well in both Rossis with accuracy increasing to near full load levels on the bowling pins at 200yds, especially with the carbine, but I still saw some significant drop with the rifle at 300yds so I'll hold off on final judgement as I want a load I can use in both my carbine and rifle.
Finally, I shot the 14.6grn 158grn Berry's plated loads and I was pleased with them in both platforms. Even though I still have more drop at 300yds with the rifle, it's on the verge of acceptable for me and at 200yds, both platforms produced good accuracy on the pins. Actually, I have to say that accuracy was probably much better than I expected. I've heard that plated bullets aren't known for great accuracy and in truth, these aren't quite as good as my Zero JSP, however, I was pleased enough with them that I'll definitely be using them for range and plinking use as the price is compelling.
The Recoil of the 14.6grn loads compared to the 14.0grn loads increased more than I thought that 0.6grns would produce but it still is lower than with a full load under a jacketed 158grn bullet. However, I attribute that to the fact that I'm shooting what are essentially, lead bullets pressure wise. I consider that at 14.6grns, I'm likely above the mid level pressure one would see with 17+grns with a jacketed bullet.
As to GunnyMack's comment on his Henry's copper fouling, when I was cleaning them up last night, even with my bore light I couldn't see any evidence of any copper fouling in either my carbine or rifle. Plated bullets do require care in loading to ensure that one doesn't cut the plating but other than that, they are quite easy to use. With 10s of thousands of rds I've loaded in 38spl,.357mag, 40s&w, 45acp, 45 Colt, 10mm, 45 Super pistols as well as M1 Carbine and 30-30 plinking loads using plated bullets, I feel I know how to deal with them.
My conclusion is that I may see what a 14.8 or 14.9grn load does before I settle on a final selection but I'm pleased with the results so far. They worked better than expected, didn't cause any issues, fed very smoothly, and just worked. And the bowling pins didn't notice any difference either.
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Deleted User 327
Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
What can I say, I can't leave well enough alone. 
After I posted my results above this morning, I got a wild hair and loaded up some different loads and went back out to give them a try instead of watching football today. 
I loaded up some 14.8grn to try in my rifle and some even lower power, 13.6grn on a lark for my carbine to see about some really light recoiling plinkers for it.
You see, I often get young ladies coming over to check out my rifles and "look at the cowboy guns" at the range. We're a private range on company property with a large membership but most of us know each other from work. As I retired some 12 years ago, it's a chance to see and catch up with folks I worked with for many years so, it's not uncommon to see someone from 'back in the day' with their wives, daughters, and grand kids out shooting and many stop by to say hi. As black rifles are all the rage with the under 40 set, many of their wives, daughters, and kids have never seen a levergun up close and personal.
I'm happy to stop and let them check out my leverguns (or any of my firearms they show an interest in) and it they wish, I'll give them instruction and then let them try a few rounds. Over the years I've introduced hundreds of people to leverguns and my M1 Carbines. The last few, I've also introduced them to my Mini M14 as well. I've found that the ladies, especially the more petite ones, really like both my M1 Carbine and Mini M14 as they say it fits them much better than the bulky receiver'd ARs most of their hubbies or dads have. I've even seen them back at the range with their own M1 Carbine of Mini-14.
Anyway, back at the testing. I gave the 14.8grn loads a go in my rifle and I'm not impressed. They shot no better at 300yds than the 14.6grn loads but I could feel the extra recoil. Unfortunately, at 72, I'm developing a slight case of arthritis in my shooting shoulder so I'm not a big fan of heavy recoiling rifles any more. I found that shooting my Rossis, especially the rifle with the crescent buttplate, produces some discomfort even though I get none when shooting my M1A with full NATO level M80 loads. I think it's because of the small buttplate size and light weight of the Rossis. So I have taken to strapping on a Caldwell Shooting Recoil Shield to soften the impact on my shoulder and that solves the issue for now. Bottom line, the 14.8grn load isn't a candidate for a plinking load any longer.
Next I gave the 13.6grn plinking loads a go in my carbine. Performance at 200yds was good and the recoil was very mild. Accuracy was good enough for me to pick off a couple of bowling pins even though it's been a while since I plinked them. As I rarely shoot my carbine over 200, I'm considering loading up 13.6grn for the carbine and 14.6grn for the rifle. However as I already load 16 calibers (7 pistol and 9 rifle) with 42 different rifle loads and 45 different pistol loads, I need another 2 unique loads like a hole in the head!!
After I posted my results above this morning, I got a wild hair and loaded up some different loads and went back out to give them a try instead of watching football today. I loaded up some 14.8grn to try in my rifle and some even lower power, 13.6grn on a lark for my carbine to see about some really light recoiling plinkers for it.You see, I often get young ladies coming over to check out my rifles and "look at the cowboy guns" at the range. We're a private range on company property with a large membership but most of us know each other from work. As I retired some 12 years ago, it's a chance to see and catch up with folks I worked with for many years so, it's not uncommon to see someone from 'back in the day' with their wives, daughters, and grand kids out shooting and many stop by to say hi. As black rifles are all the rage with the under 40 set, many of their wives, daughters, and kids have never seen a levergun up close and personal.
I'm happy to stop and let them check out my leverguns (or any of my firearms they show an interest in) and it they wish, I'll give them instruction and then let them try a few rounds. Over the years I've introduced hundreds of people to leverguns and my M1 Carbines. The last few, I've also introduced them to my Mini M14 as well. I've found that the ladies, especially the more petite ones, really like both my M1 Carbine and Mini M14 as they say it fits them much better than the bulky receiver'd ARs most of their hubbies or dads have. I've even seen them back at the range with their own M1 Carbine of Mini-14.
Anyway, back at the testing. I gave the 14.8grn loads a go in my rifle and I'm not impressed. They shot no better at 300yds than the 14.6grn loads but I could feel the extra recoil. Unfortunately, at 72, I'm developing a slight case of arthritis in my shooting shoulder so I'm not a big fan of heavy recoiling rifles any more. I found that shooting my Rossis, especially the rifle with the crescent buttplate, produces some discomfort even though I get none when shooting my M1A with full NATO level M80 loads. I think it's because of the small buttplate size and light weight of the Rossis. So I have taken to strapping on a Caldwell Shooting Recoil Shield to soften the impact on my shoulder and that solves the issue for now. Bottom line, the 14.8grn load isn't a candidate for a plinking load any longer.
Next I gave the 13.6grn plinking loads a go in my carbine. Performance at 200yds was good and the recoil was very mild. Accuracy was good enough for me to pick off a couple of bowling pins even though it's been a while since I plinked them. As I rarely shoot my carbine over 200, I'm considering loading up 13.6grn for the carbine and 14.6grn for the rifle. However as I already load 16 calibers (7 pistol and 9 rifle) with 42 different rifle loads and 45 different pistol loads, I need another 2 unique loads like a hole in the head!!
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trekker
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Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
great commentary Steve. Can I ask if you find the heavy octagonal barrels offers any accuracy advantages over the lighter round barrels. Any advantage to it heating up slower like a varmint barrel does.
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Deleted User 327
Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
The heavier barrel certainly helps dissipate the heat better in that it has significantly more mass, more surface area, and with long edges to wick away heat, better dissipation. That said, what really gives the rifle better accuracy are the sights. The carbine, even with upgraded Marbles semi-buckhorn rear and thin 1/16" bead front sights, has a sight radius (distance between the front and rear sights) of only 16".trekker wrote:great commentary Steve. Can I ask if you find the heavy octagonal barrels offers any accuracy advantages over the lighter round barrels. Any advantage to it heating up slower like a varmint barrel does.
Compare that to the rifle with a target aperture (.042") tang and a globe front sight with a sight radius of 30", double the length. Then add the fact that the target aperture of the tang is very close to the eye and with it's tiny aperture, increases the Depth of Field so much over stand sight that both the front sight and target are clearly in focus, even to my tired old eyes, and there is no contest between the two aiming systems.
So yes, the rifle's longer, heavier barrel better dissipates the heat and the better sights allow more precise aiming than is possible on a 20" carbine. Add to that the fact that at the shoulder, the heavier barreled rifle seems to hang on target better with it's higher mass and it's hands down much easier to shoot accurately at longer ranges with it.
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trekker
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Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
Thanks for that Steve. I have the 24" barrel octagonal and was wondering how it goes alongside the carbines, as Ive never handled one.
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Deleted User 327
Re: Trying a New Load in My Rossis
You have got to get a 20" carbine as well. Then, of course, you'll need a SA in .357mag to go along with you 'woods walking'. I got a SA Cavalry model Uberti Cattleman as I was in a couple of Armored Cavalry units in the Army way back when. BTW, I shoot a much reduced load in my pistol as I don't need the power for plinking with it. 4.5grns of Unique under a 158grn bullet makes for an easy shooting .357. And, to keep them straight, all of my pistol loads are in nickel plated brass while my rifle loads are in brass brass.trekker wrote:Thanks for that Steve. I have the 24" barrel octagonal and was wondering how it goes alongside the carbines, as Ive never handled one.
But don't get me wrong, if I'm looking to stretch out the range some, my 24" rifle is just the ticket. More power and more range from the barrel plus twice the sight radius (16" for the carbine with it's barrel rear sight and 30" for the rifle with it's tang sight).
