Tanker inbound

A bucket for anything that does not fit the above forum categories, both longgun and handgun.
Reese-Mo
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Tanker inbound

Post by Reese-Mo »

The thread on the "new" Springfield SA-35 instilled (or perhaps distilled) a longing for a High Power, since that simple women of years past, got each and every one of mine. :cry:

I saw the Tisas version, and methinks there's some cross pollinationizing goin on between Springfield and ZIG/Tisas. I know the receiver _says_ USA, but as Springfield did with Brazil made receivers after a while, they brought in less than fully machined items and did final machining in the USA. Not sure if that's still the case, but it was for a while at least (talkin in the late 80's to mid 90's).

At any rate, doing some SA-35 seaerchin' was fruitless. However, doing some Tisas searchin' resulted in my stumbling across their "Tanker" 1911. A Combat Commander by any other name, except done up a little differently -

* A short wide-spur hammer, rather than the roll type normally used on a Combat Commander. I like the roll type hammers, generally don't like skeleton-ized hammers, but the presence of a wide spur, of somewhat graceful proportion, appealed to me on this particular pistol. Look at some of the "repro" wide spur hammers and they are thick in the spur, too long, and generally much like trying to rob a bank with a Ronald Regan mask on, and having people think ol' Ronnie actually pulled off the heist.

* A military type grip safety, rather than the one similarly styled but useful for the roll hammer. The end of the grip safety has to match the curves _and_ length of the hammer. Interesting to note that Colt made two different wide spur hammers. The original was long as I recall, the post 1924 ones were shorter, with some reversion again to the long ones sometime prior to WWII. Dunno all the details on that, just know there were two of 'em. Both graceful.

* A Colt-esque style thumb safety, rather than a military nub type. I can use either, but hate those brake pedal equipped safeties. The ambi version of those remind me one of those student driver cars floorboard.

*A slightly beveled magazine well, rather than the squared off entrance. I don't mind that as long as its not excessive.

*A slide stop disassembly notch in the modern Colt position, rather than the "close to the slide stop notch" position of the military slides. I have no clue as to why Colt moved the notch to about midway between the end of the slide stop and its pin section. The military, and most clones (but not all) keep the notch about 5/8 inch from the stop notch. I know the military, and Colt, flame hardened the stop notch and the spot under the slide at the spot hits the recoil spring plug upon firing. Having both notches in the same spot seems to make it easier to harden them both, even though they don't need to harden the takedown notch. I dunno, a mystery to me. If anyone has a clue, feel free to explain!

*A not quite so high as it ought to be, yet not quite so low as to let crap fall into the works ejection port that for some reason has the "AMU/Gold-Cup" relief cut on it. I guess Tanker folks like to save their brass to reload. I prefer the high wall port. Its the way JMB designed it. It works for good and powerful ammo. Fast forward to wimpy sissy/girly ammo on target guns. The first thing that they did was put the relief cut on the upper corner of the slide to prevent brass from low powered ammo from flipping back and having its case mouth dented. Yup, that's what its for. I'm not sure if the AMU started that, or Colt, but they both did it when building National Match pistols. Makes reloading better, as you don't have to deal with dents. The lowering of the port wall.... was an addendum to the relief cut, as an aid to cycling with non full power ammo. I'm not sure who started that, but it doesn't belong on any self defense pistol, IMHO. You can see under the damn barrel. Crud, stray cat hair, body lice, you name it... can fall in there and create a non functioning gun. For a range toy, or competition gun, do what ya want. For a defense gun, give me the high wall, and full powered ammo.

* And it comes with one of those hideous extended 8 round magazines with the finger rest that "hides" the magazine extension. I've got a quite a few magazines here, so no biggie on that.

A few Tisas 1911A1 "clones" have been examined by me, and they all seemed well built, fairly tight pistols. I check things like barrel play (front back) in the slide while its off the frame, how the disconnector is doing, how the relationship of the plunger tube to thumb safety is situated. They look good, feel good, smell good, taste good. Hoping the Tanker will up to that.

Pictures of exterior and internals when it arrives....
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Archer »

Sounds interesting.
At first I thought you were talking cut down BHP when you said 'Tanker' but then you got into the 1911ish items and I understood.

I'm not certain about the takdown notch being colocated with the slide stop, that seems wrong but maybe it isn't quite the way it sounds.

Flared ejection port, I'm ok with. I've never really understood lowered ejection port, especially to the point where 'you can see under the barrel' although I admit I've got several guns that are that way. My 1911 Colt ARMY (pre A1) might ding the brass a mite from time to time but I don't recall it being non-reloadable as a rule. Might slow down the brass prep if it dings the case mouth though.

The Springfield 1911s from Brazil in the mid to late 90s were still marked "FI Brazil" I still own a Champion so marked. As I understood it those frames were investment cast and not forged. They now seem to be claiming forged on all their frames except the plastic ones.

Looking forward to pictures and to seeing how they did the barrel lock up.
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Reese-Mo »

Archer wrote:Sounds interesting.
At first I thought you were talking cut down BHP

I'm not certain about the takdown notch being colocated with the slide stop, that seems wrong but maybe it isn't quite the way it sounds.

My 1911 Colt ARMY (pre A1) might ding the brass a mite from time to time but I don't recall it being non-reloadable ....

The Springfield 1911s from Brazil in the mid to late 90s were still marked "FI Brazil"

Looking forward to pictures and to seeing how they did the barrel lock up.
I think they called the shorty BHP the "Detective" and it was Argentine, from FM.

Have a look at that notch location. Colt old original Series 70 MkIV, new Colts, retro Colts, then old military 1911 and A1 variety. Then... look at all the clones and imports. Crazy where things have been located.

I remember there was a bit of a brouhaha about Springfield being marked "USA" when they were Brazil made. Something about ATF getting on their case, so the frames were marked Brazil. Then shooters didn't like that, so they did basic forging or casting (dunno which) and final machining here, thus enabling "USA" again. I pretty much got out of the biz around that time, and lost track of all the "he said/she said" of Springfield.
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Archer »

I don't recall what they called the shorty BHP clones Detective sounds possibly correct but I do think you are correct that FM did them, probably during their unlicensed production phases.

After all what's in a name a Colt Commander vs. a Springfield Champion vs. a Kimber ProCarry...
Not to be confused with the Colt Officers vs. Kimber Ultra vs. Detonics Combat Master vs. Colt Defender...
Not to be confused with a Springfield Compact Carry vs. a Kimber Carry

What IS the defining barrel length 4", 4.1" , 4.25", 3.5", 3.0" and what is the correct number of rounds in the magazine of which? It's weird what works vs. usually works vs. usually doesn't work so well. I read one article claiming Colt had so many problems with the officers 3.5" length that they ceased production so they could manufacture the 3" Defender... Yeah that makes sense!
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Reese-Mo »

Archer wrote: I read one article claiming Colt had so many problems with the officers 3.5" length that they ceased production so they could manufacture the 3" Defender... Yeah that makes sense!
Back in... I can't remember exactly which year. Mid 80's. Irving Stone aka BarSto and I got talking and he said... ya know I've got some interesting really short barrels here for the 45 auto. He did up a run for Colt, for something they were developing. I ordered one. Took a Combat Commander slide, and whacked off just enough to make it work with the barrel. The barrel OD at the muzzle was actually just a tad over the slide's ID. As you recall, the Officers ACP had a bored out front section to hold that weird sloppy fit bushing. I knew nothing of Colt's design, as it wasn't out yet... So I just fit the muzzle end to the inside of the slide, cleaned it all up, beveled the front opening of the slide, and all around the flats and top curve of the slide as well. How to hold the recoil spring? I took a guide rod and a mainspring cap and fit an E-clip to it. Done. It worked GREAT. I called Stone back and ordered another. The VERY NEXT MONTH the back of the American Rifleman had a picture of the "new Colt Officer's ACP" with a hacksaw and a bunch of wood shavings that were supposed to be "swarf" in the picture. My buddy Andy and I laughed our fool butts off. We beat 'em!
20211108_215144_(1)_resized.jpg
20211108_215216_(1)_resized.jpg
That's what I cut off the Combat Commander slide. Its been on my key chain since that night. Sorry for the dirty digits... just got in, need to clean up. ;)

Over the years, there were a few more Officer's ACP's in my life. Never had a lick o trouble. Same with the Springfield 4 incher and the Rock Island 3-1/2 incher.

The purpose of gun magazines is to sell more gun magazines. Anything they can do to sell the rag is fair game, so I dunno, maybe that article was all about that (or to just promote the new Defender).

ON A BETTER NOTE -- The Tanker has shipped and should be in on Thursday.
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Archer »

ON A BETTER NOTE -- The Tanker has shipped and should be in on Thursday.
Cool, that should be nice.

I own a couple Kimber CDP Ultras, a couple Springfield Champions (with different spring setups) and a Para P12-45 plus a couple Springfield EMP 9mm with 3" barrels. I haven't had problems with any of them. I DO need to run some hollow points through the EMPs for function check though.

I did have a friend with a Colt Combat Commander that would choke after about 70 or 80 rounds on fouling.
I know of at least one of the old major custom shops that wouldn't work on anything 1911ish less than ~4.1" long.
I know of one local shop that marked all Para P12 or P10 pistols 'As Is ALL Sales FINAL!' stating as far as they know there's nothing wrong with the pistol but they just got more of them showing back up with complaints than the guns that didn't have a 3.5" or 3" barrel.
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Reese-Mo »

One big issue with short barrels is the lack of dwell time - breech face passing behind the pickup point on the magazine. The distances are shorter, the slides move faster, they bounce more too. What that means is that top round in the magazine needs to rise up real quick or get pushed nose down because the breech face is just barely catching the top of the brass. Kahr is a prime example. Almose no dwell, and they need a full power magazine sprong to get the job of chambering the next round done. The 1911 is "a little" more forgiving. Just a little though...
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Archer »

Another issue is the barrel tilt angle. Often on the shorter barreled guns that angle is much steeper than it is with the full sized guns. One of the reasons I think the Kimber Ultras tend to be a bit more reliable than some of the other shorties is they seem to have managed to keep that angle pretty shallow.

Several of the small guns mentioned are using a bushingless bull barreled system that seems to help with that problem vs the shortened sloppy bushing system.
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Reese-Mo »

Bushingless is the only way to go, IMHO.

People talk about wear. I ported one of those old BarSto barrels. Tried it without any slide porting. Jeeze no, that didn't work at all. So then I ported the slide. That really didn't work too well either. So then I made up some really big electrodes.... from memory they were about 1/4 inch across and a little longer than the original port electrodes. That worked. For about 10 shots, then it fouled up real bad. Cast bullets, lube got in the works. So, I had the bright idea at that point to cut "splines" in the end of the barrel. I think there were 8 grooves ground from front to back across the "bell" of that barrel. Maybe six, doesn't matter much though. And that REALLY worked. Jacketed, cast, soft lead, it all ran thru that little 45 like goose grease.

And those splines would have shown wear in the slide is what I was thinking. Never did. I gave that gun to my ol' compadre Bob P, and he shot it lots out in OK, never once complained of any wear or such. I'm all in on bushingless, except that its perhaps harder to hold a tight tolerance in production. Or, it _was_ harder 40 years ago. I'm sure today matching a slide to barrel would be easy peasy at the right work station.

Not sure what Kimber does, but if you think about it, the up/down of the chamber end of the barrel has to pretty much stay the same. They lock with engagement, and unlock coming out of engagement and there's only so much room, and its the same in all the 1911's (within small variations I'm sure). The exit point at the front of the slide remains at the same "elevation" above the top of the frame as it moves rearward. The only difference is where the front of the slide is. So, you're right, short barrel, steeper angle. The front of the slide, or its position rather, is acting just like a sine bar on a tooling setup.
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Re: Tanker inbound

Post by Reese-Mo »

I thought you'd ask about the angled section in the front of the slide, and the cross cut. Test cuts, that I thought "Teddy-the-Welder" could correct if I found things were going south. As it were, the slide was pretty soft stuff, except.... right where the "curve" in the hood section is. They must flame harden those to be really tough. Getting thru that did some doing. Didn't have a thin wheel to plunge grind it, and wasn't gonna use hand held grinder! That pretty much wore out a hacksaw blade just in that one part of the cut. The rest was like cuttin' dried gum with a breadknife.
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