Phoenix Arms

A bucket for anything that does not fit the above forum categories, both longgun and handgun.
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Phoenix Arms

Post by Archer »

Anyone have any experience with their .22 LR?
I've always avoided them but I've got a friend asking what I know about them or what the guys on the forums know.
Reviews are pretty mixed about both the guns and the company.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by Ranch Dog »

If I were to ever see an HP25A (25 Auto), I would probably buy it.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by GasGuzzler »

Not sure I've ever heard of them.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by mr surveyor »

I bought a .25 acp Jimenez JA25 (same basic "family", just one of many different company names) several years ago from an ffl buddy at his cost when he was liquidating the brand from his stock. I suppose it could have been a fun range toy but my Kel Tec pistols almost looked like Cadillacs by comparison. I only had a hundred or so rounds through it when a guy from another web forum offered to pay my little investment money back and shipping cost. He got it.

The workmanship was fair, for the most part, and could be somewhat tweaked to make the gun operate properly - at least 90% of the time. Unfortunately the quality of materials just didn't look like the product would withstand very much range time. You do get what you pay for.

just my opinions


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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by Ranch Dog »

I owned a JA-25 Mr. Surveryor; I think I paid $65 for it and shot it quite a bit. I liked it and bought the 32, 380, LC380, 380T, and Nine. I caught so much grieve from others about them that I took and shot the four-day Front Sight Defense Handgun course with it. Their motto of "any gun will do" held as their instructors didn't bat an eye at the gun and were only interested in how well it functioned and how well I shot it. It is ironic in that it was the same course that I saw two Glock KABOOMs.

Jimenez was a great outfit as well. Personally, anytime customer service is difficult to hear because of guns firing in the background, I'm good with that. I was using these pistols to develop a pistol cast bullet line; my intent was nothing more than "test mules." I ended up cracking the frame on the 380, that taught me that the small frame pistols like the LCP and TCP could not handle the recoil energies of a 125-grain 380 bullet, so I switched my effort back to a 100-grain offering. Their LC380 and 380T didn't have a problem with the larger bullet. I also cracked the frame on the Nine shortly after I got back from Front Sight. I had been shooting my 135-grain offering at full stand pressures and put 1K 147-grain bullets through it at the FS course, about 2K bullets through it total, and noticed that the stock was cracked while cleaning the magazine well. Remembering that these are cast alloy pistols, they are probably better suited with the lighter choice of bullets for the intended cartridge. I talked to JA about it, they didn't care, they replaced the pistol immediately. In both cases, the 380 and Nine, there was no discussion or forms to fill out, or FFL to deal with. The phone conversation was answered in the first five to ten rings, the phone handed to the Service Manager (guns firing in the background), and a new pistol sent to me in two days time with a return Fed-Ex label for the broken arm. It cost me nothing.

I've seen a figure that around 90% of all handguns spend their lifetime in nightstand or dresser drawer. The only thing that is required of them is that they go bang when the trigger is pulled. Given that a lot of folks are always pinching pennies, I will guarantee them this pistol will go bang.

Given the cast alloy, which makes them heavy (same reason I sold four revolvers), and the volume of range shooting that I do, they weren't going to fit my needs. As "test mules", the did serve nobly. I don't recall any notable feed issues. With few parts, any feed issues are with the magazine lips and that is an easy adjustment.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by Archer »

So a little history, some of it might even be correct.

George Jennings started Raven Arms in 1970 and manufactured the MP-25 and P-25 (same gun different labels) a .25 ACP barely big enough to hold onto if you have small hands. The pistol was produced out of Zamak a zinc alloy pot metal through injection molding. The gun went through about 4 design evolutions mostly regarding the size of the safety with minor functional change. George ran an aerospace machine shop in SoCal.
After the factory burned down in 1991 George apparently sold the company/factory to Phoenix Arms which apparently was owned in equal shares by his wife and kids.

MEANWHILE in 1978 Jennings was started by George's son Bruce Jennings.
Jennings was likewise a manufacturer of low end small semi autos out of Zamak pot metal, mostly variations on the initial design in two or three different calibers. Jennings declared bankruptcy and was 'reorganized' as Bryco which continued to produce the same designs apparently under both the Jennings and Bryco names. Most of these guns were produced as J-___.

Bryco got sued when some idiot claimed to be 'unloading' one of their firearm designs and shot a 7 year old and paralyzed said kid for life. As a result Bryco went bankrupt in 2003.
Jennings and Bryco operated out of three or four locations in SoCal and Nevada.

Paul Jimenez who had been a foreman at the company purchased Bryco for half a million and renamed in Jimenez Arms. Jimenez apparently has continued to produce the same designs. in calibers from .22LR to 9mm. Apparently their newest versions are marked JA-__. Jimenez started in SoCal at one of the former Bryco/Jennings locations and then moved to Nevada.

MEANWHILE Lorcin Engineering Company started in 1989 by John Waldorf (a high school friend of Bruce Jennings) produced some of the same designs also out of Zamak with the prefix L instead of J. Lorcin was also sued bankrupted and reconstituted dissolved and eventually reconstituted as Standard Arms of Reno.

Phoenix Arms apparently produces a .22LR in two barrel lengths and with interchangeable barrels.
They also produce a .25 ACP.
The .22 can be had for around $125 with the 3" barrel and for around $180 with both barrels, two magazines and a cleaning kit. Reviews vary with about 3/4ers of the ones I've actually seen being positive about 10% negative and the remainder somewhat neutral. MOST reviews regarding customer service seem positive although there is still that 10-15% that is not so pleased.

It should be noted that at one point around 1993 these guns (Jennings) were produced in the highest volume of ANY firearm in the U.S.. Due to the low cost there were probably millions of them sold.
The initial Raven design is attributed to gun control legislation making inexpensive imported handguns nearly impossible to bring into the country after 1968.

I may have to see what I can find about some of the other low cost manufactures of 'UGLY' pistols from yesteryear.

On a side note, somebody brought one of the .25 ACP designs into the shop a couple years back (I don't recall which brand or flavor) and it took about 45 minutes to an hour, an engineer, a Air Force aircraft mechanic, a ball point pen, watching two youtube videos multiple times to get the thing disassembled because the owner put the firing pin in backwards. We must of switched off about 4 times before I finally got it apart.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by Archer »

On the subject of ugly guns...
I still recall running into a Stallard JS-45 at one of the big box stores some 3 decades ago or so.
I've seen similar versions under three or four names.
Imagine my surprise when I find out it was supposedly manufactured by Hi-Point.
Particularly interesting when it seems Hi-Point started around 5 years or so after I ran into the Stallard.
Stallard is noted as a 'house' name for MKS Supply.

Hi-Point by the way uses Zamak-3 for the slide and low stress metal parts.
Hi-Point was founded in Michigan and is based in Ohio where their firearms are apparently produced.
It is a spin from an automotive parts producer much like the Jennings family was spun off aerospace.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by Ranch Dog »

I've seen the Hi-Points at Front Sight and they do very well. These are large pistols.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by HarryAlonzo »

Chiappa also uses Zinc die cast receivers, on their break open single shots. Seems to work very well for them. Zinc die casting alloys have a low strength-to-weight ratio, and have low ductility. But the material is cheap, the tooling is cheap, and the process is fast, so the parts are cheap. Production volume has to be sufficient to maintain the interest and attention of the die casting house. Zinc needs goodly draft angles and has a hard time filling fine features and holding close tolerances. Secondary machining operations are often required , and tend to offset the cost benefits of the raw casting. Threads generally require inserts. Cosmetic parts are almost always powder coated. Here ends today's lesson.
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Re: Phoenix Arms

Post by Archer »

Hi-Points are large and heavy because they are straight blowback.
They are reliable in large part because they are dirt simple and the use of zinc parts is limited mostly to the heavy slide. The slide is typically twice the weight or more than on any locking breach pistol I can think of.

I don't know how reliable the .45 ACPs are since I haven't ever shot one and the ones I handled were decades ago. The Stallard versions I saw were rough in that the action was not smooth and used a 1911 magazine if I recall correctly. The 9mms I have handled in the past 10-15 years are much smoother than those earlier versions.
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