Gas check vs powder coating

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Moon Tree
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Gas check vs powder coating

Post by Moon Tree »

I shoot a Rossi 92 in .357 with a 20" barrel. To date my most accurate bullet has been a SNS 158 grain RFN bullet. I'm thinking of trying the Lee 358-158-RF. For deer hunting I'll need to speed it up quite a bit, probably beyond the velocity of causing leading issue. Since this is not a gas-check design, one option would be powder coating.

QUESTION:
For those who powder coat: What's the maximum velocity you've run through your gun with a similar bullet.

Gas Check loaders: The same question.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by Ranch Dog »

Why not use water quenched weight weights. That usually delivers about 18 BHN which should be close to good at max pressure. Max velocity won't be an issue with the 357 Mag.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by Ranch Dog »

I noticed in your conversation you indicated you had called Lee concerning the meplat. Attached is a pdf that is available on the Lee Precision website that highlights the important measurements of the bullets. Unfortunately, it doesn't include meplat.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by jdb »

Moon Tree wrote: QUESTION:
For those who powder coat: What's the maximum velocity you've run through your gun with a similar bullet.

Gas Check loaders: The same question.
I get why you're asking Moon, it can be a problem. But I would ask, if you are just working up a hunting load and you get a little fowling, what real difference will it make?

I mean, other than when you are at the range sighting the gun in and can take a brush with ya, the deer won't care if you have to scrub a little lead out of your barrel after you skin him. ;~)

Seriously, I was just wondering. Cause I will tolerate things out of loads intended for a specific purpose that I won't put up with at all out of that load for a plinker. So I thought I'd point it out and see if anyone else does the same.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by Ranch Dog »

jdb wrote:Seriously, I was just wondering. Cause I will tolerate things out of loads intended for a specific purpose that I won't put up with at all out of that load for a plinker. So I thought I'd point it out and see if anyone else does the same.
I do the same if needed. None of the "painters" have yet responded but I don't think that the epoxy changes what the alloy can tolerate. My take on it is that it simply replaces the lube as a pressure seal.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by Ranch Dog »

For the cost of a Lee double cavity mold, I think I would give it a try. If you could find an old Lee .358 Lube Kit, you could pan lube the bullets with stick Alox.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by donhuff »

Dang Moon, couldn't you come up with a harder question!!!

I have shot my 357, over 2100 fps with no leading using plain ole wheel weights. Using P-coated bullets. It really works!

I have shot bullets very fast with gas checks and not had problems with leading......most of the time.

I have tried the Lee 358 158RF and could not make it accurate no matter what I tried!

SO, you could try "plain base gas checks" on the bullets you already have. You could try harder alloys, and water quenching (I always water quench). Or spend a bunch of money and time and start powder coating your bullets......you know....There aint no easy answer to your question!

I can send you some Lee 158 RF powder coated bullets if you want to try them. Heck, I'd like to know if the danged things will actually hit a target! I cant make em do it.

OR (and this might be the best option) if you have a load that you like, and a slug that you like,. Send me a couple hundred of YOUR bullets, and I will powder coat them for you and you can determine if they are better for your purpose or not. Just pick a color that I already have please. AND I have some plain base gas checks. I can "check" some for you if you want to try that too.

RD,
Epoxy? powder coat is actually polyester. And I do not think that the lube/PC is THE seal. I think the PC is what lets the lead "slide" down the barrel without sticking, by reducing the friction/heat. I think (but could be totally wrong) that the main seal against pressure loss is the width/integrity of the bottom driving band of the bullet. That's why I tend to ream out the grease groove on most of my molds, and make the bottom band as wide as I can. While this might not work with lubed bullets cause it reduces the amount of lube- ie friction, It seems to work really well with my PCed bullets.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by Ranch Dog »

donhuff wrote:RD,
Epoxy? powder coat is actually polyester. And I do not think that the lube/PC is THE seal. I think the PC is what lets the lead "slide" down the barrel without sticking, by reducing the friction/heat. I think (but could be totally wrong) that the main seal against pressure loss is the width/integrity of the bottom driving band of the bullet. That's why I tend to ream out the grease groove on most of my molds, and make the bottom band as wide as I can. While this might not work with lubed bullets cause it reduces the amount of lube- ie friction, It seems to work really well with my PCed bullets.
Sorry about the Epoxy vs. PC's use of polyester...
Ranch Dog wrote:... My take on it is that it simply replaces the lube as a pressure seal.
That is a pretty simple statement but I do agree with this in depth treatment of the subject by Glen E. Fryxell: Lubricating Cast Bullets

As you get down to the last paragraph, he sums up:
In summary, bullet lube is pumped from the lube groove to the barrel surface by compression, linear acceleration and radial acceleration. In addition, lube is injected forward during the firing process, as the result of high-pressure gas leakage into the lube groove. This injection process forms a floating fluid gasket around the bullet, and serves to limit gas cutting and is a kind of ballistic stop-leak.
Lube is pretty much nothing until pressure is applied and this it is a seal between bullet and bore.
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by Moon Tree »

WOW GUYS! What great responses. Thanks so much. Ok where to start?

First, I have yet to cast the first bullet. I've been shooting "store bought" bullets until I find what I like. That 158 grain SNS RNFP is a winner for plinking. BUT, the meplat is pretty small, .231 by my best attempts with a caliper. So I don't think it's what I need for a deer/boar hunting bullet. Could be wrong?

Ranch Dog, I think I understand what you're saying, "the pressure will cause me problems before the velocity will." Unfortunately, I have no way to measure the pressure, so velocity is my best yard stick at the moment. I have pushed the Kieth bullets I used on the deer a couple weeks ago, by 1 grain above manual Max levels. Velocity went from an average of 1681 fps to 1767 fps. No signs of primer flatten, case budges/splits or ejector problems. I think I'm starting to get to the point of "diminishing returns" on pressure vs velocity.

Everyone, I get you on "hunting bullets vs plinking bullets" with regards to leading issues. It makes perfect sense to me.

DON, WHAT A GENEROUS OFFER(s)! I love the idea of "try before you buy." Even though, a Lee mould at $20 isn't a big cash outlay, Why go to time and expense when you don't have to. I'd love to trade you say 40 of my SNS 158 RNFP bullets for 40 of your powder coated Lee RFN 158 grain bullets. (I can do more if you like) Maybe later when I find the "perfect hunting" bullet, I send you a couple hundred to powder coat and you keep a hundred to try out yourself.

This trade with Don, got me thinking. Maybe a cast bullet trade thread would be fun. Those who'd like participate post their favorite bullet(s) and someone who'd like to try them contacts that member in PM about a trade for some of their favorite bullet. Ranch Dog would this be OK with you?
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Re: Gas check vs powder coating

Post by donhuff »

RD,

No need to apologize. I think lots of folks that do not PC think it is epoxy based because of the Hi-Tec coating. That stuff is epoxy, and has been around a lot longer than PC.

I have often wondered about my "wide driving band idea" and if there was any merit to it or not, as there are a lot of designs that have a rather thin bottom band. Then there are the tumble lube designs like you favor, that have almost no bands at all, as far as width goes. But they have a bunch of narrow bands, and they do really well.

Ya know last year, I took a couple of my old molds and reamed out ALL the grooves to make them slick sided like a jacketed bullet. They were no more accurate than they were before reaming, and could tolerate no more pressure either. But they did drop out of the molds a LOT easier so all was not lost.

I guess the lube on a bullet, does about the same thing that oil does for piston rings in an engine. It forms that final seal against leakage of pressure, and lubricates the surfaces to reduce friction heat. Which would lead to a breakdown of the "piston" and cause a massive pressure leak.
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16" SS 92 357
20" BL 92 357
20" SS 92 44
20" BL 92 44
20" Bl 92 45C
20" Bl 92 454
SS Rio Grande 30-30
Bl Rio Grande 45-70
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