Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

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Mad Trapper
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Re: Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

Post by Mad Trapper »

Elmer Keith in Sixguns, wrote about testing loads in the slaughter houses on bison,steer,etc.
They found out that high velocity bullets with spitzer tips were going so fast they would shatter on impact of the forehead of a bisons skull.
But the slower moving 44 mag would have no problem with deep penetration.
The Civil War Vets talked about the killing power of the 51 navy with round ball.
Elmer said one Union Major said he carried two colt 51 navies,36 cal.
He came across some troops that were foraging and asked the Major to kill two hogs that were hiding in the brush.
The hogs came running out of the brush and he put a round ball behind the ear of each running hog and dropped them both with one shot each.
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Re: Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

Post by Arroyoshark »

Mad Trapper, those are interesting remarks from Elmer Keith about the '51 Colt Navy .36 cal. The .36 cal. round ball might weigh, what, maybe 70 - 80 grains, propelled from a '51 navy around 850-900 fps. Seems that performance approximates with contemporary .380 acp. Today the tac-ti-cool agents would proclaim that performance is barely adequate.

Maybe the soft lead .380 dia. round ball was very effective at penetration at those velocities ?
When sitting down to clean a gun, the first step is to load another gun - Elmer Keith
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Re: Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

Post by Mad Trapper »

Elmer said the one old Vet told him, all he did was pack all the 2F powder he could get in a cylinder, then seat a round ball.
He said another Vet told him they were issued paper cartridges in a wood box package, they used conical bullets in the paper cartridges.
But they chose to use round ball.
He said they would shoot men with the paper cartridge conical bullets, but the men shot, tended to stay on their feet and keep fighting.
He said the round ball was better at knocking a man off his feet and would keep him down.
I was reading this in my copy of sixguns,1961 edition, chapter one, page 14, 15, he talks about the hog killing.
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Re: Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

Post by Mad Trapper »

Arroyoshark wrote:Mad Trapper, those are interesting remarks from Elmer Keith about the '51 Colt Navy .36 cal. The .36 cal. round ball might weigh, what, maybe 70 - 80 grains, propelled from a '51 navy around 850-900 fps. Seems that performance approximates with contemporary .380 acp. Today the tac-ti-cool agents would proclaim that performance is barely adequate.

Maybe the soft lead .380 dia. round ball was very effective at penetration at those velocities ?
Think the Vet said on page 15, he used 2F and had to use a pure lead ball.

All i can figure, is these men were excellent marksman and could put the round ball in the right place.
About like Bill Hickok putting a 380 ball through Dave Tutts heart at 75 yds.
But Dave still ran around for a bit before he went down.
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Re: Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

Post by Arroyoshark »

You’ve piqued my interest in Elmer Keith writings again. I have some edition of “Sixguns” stashed somewhere. Need to dig it out again and reread some of his stuff. Driving South through Idaho a couple years ago, I stumbled upon his old Northfork ranch. It had a road sign for Keith Lane. It was posted for sale, so I drove in to take a look. It was interesting to see his old homestead, nuttin’ fancy. Apparently the family kept the land after Elmer & wife moved into Salmon around 1950. I could stand there and imagine Elmer at his shooting bench shooting toward mountainside at west end of his land.

If you enjoy Elmer Keith, you might then enjoy listening to a couple audios of interview with Mr. Keith near the end of his time -

Elmer Keith interview tapes, 1981
When sitting down to clean a gun, the first step is to load another gun - Elmer Keith
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Re: Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

Post by Mad Trapper »

Arroyoshark, you just made my day,thank you brother.
Chapter XIV, loading and management of cap and ball sixguns, page 213, Elmer said the old gunfighters favored cap and ball for the smoke screen, after a few shots indoors, noone could see the shooter, but the shooter was close to the smoke and could see his enemies.
He said the blast from the first shot would put out all the kerosene lamps in the room.
He talks about that major who carried two 51 colts in 36 cal. and dropped two running hogs with shots behind the ear, still trying to rap my head around that.
But poachers have been using 22 lr to take all matter of big game.
So Im figuring it goes back to shot placement.
He said that while on horse back, from about two to three ft. away, they used the colt dragoon to take Buffalo.
The load was 50 gr black powder, round ball, would go through the lungs of a running Buffalo.
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Re: Lyman 429667 from Western Bullet Company

Post by Bazoo »

Nice gun and bullets, and awesome water jug test. Thanks for sharing.

Also interesting discussion about Keith. I've read Sixguns, but I don't remember those specific stories as it's been a while.

It would be neat to own Elmer's old place. I bet there'd be a lof of gun folks that'd like to check it out, I know I would.
Cataloging the world's bullets.
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