Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Rossi's latest and past big game rifle based on the 336 frame!
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Ranch Dog »

Arroyoshark wrote:Slight hi-jack, but ...
Ranch Dog wrote: The only Rio Grande I have left is the one I rechambered to 30-30AI.
... I was a bit surprised to read this. You had one of the good Rio Grande .45-70's, a proclaimed favorite. Was not aware you moved it on. Have you now a different .45-70 lever ?
Yeah, I sold it. I just wasn't shooting it. I also sold the rifle that I rechambered to 38-55. Just thinned down the amount of arms I own.
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Arroyoshark »

Ranch Dog wrote:
Arroyoshark wrote:Slight hi-jack, but ...
Ranch Dog wrote: The only Rio Grande I have left is the one I rechambered to 30-30AI.
... I was a bit surprised to read this. You had one of the good Rio Grande .45-70's, a proclaimed favorite. Was not aware you moved it on. Have you now a different .45-70 lever ?
Yeah, I sold it. I just wasn't shooting it. I also sold the rifle that I rechambered to 38-55. Just thinned down the amount of arms I own.
I read earlier this year you had moved to new place, no more hog hunting or conservation ranching. Do you have good deer hunting opportunity on your new spread ? Imagine the .30-30 Ackley is the ticket for that with heavier projectiles.
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Reese-Mo »

I have no objection to a good bit of thread drift, but back onto the original track of this thread....

I've not loaded for 30-30 Win in donkey's years. I think it was the 1970s. I had a Winchester Model 94, that I paid $99 for, at W.T. Grant in Delray Beach, Florida, on close out when they were liquidating everything.

Right from the get go, I had some ammo troubles. Back in those days, you got Winchester, or Remington ammo, or didn't buy any ammo. There was some CCI rimfire around, but I can't recall Federal being anyplace that sold ammo. Here's what my old pal Handy Andy told me, and of course he was right. He said, gun makers tend to cut their chambers on the generous side, because if there ever was anyone's ammo that didn't fit the gun, the gun got blamed. On the hand, ammo makers tend to form their cartridges on small side, and given the same reasoning, if their ammo didn't fit some gun out there, they got the blame. And on occasion, the two conflicting circumstances meet up, and you get some issues, be they accuracy, or sticky cases, or gas leak, pending failure (aka, not good for reloading) or whatever.

After much investigation, Andy and I discovered that the rims on the ammo I got were a bit on the thin side. The cases were tight in the chambers, but could be extracted with difficulty. They seemed to fall back into the chamber but... closing the action was harder, and then the case was stuck again, or rather, the action was. We were a rather investigative pair of individuals, so Andy and I cut open a case the long way. No case stretch/thin spot at the head.

The "cure" was to reload, but instead of normal "full length" resizing, I adjusted the die so the cases just snicked nicely into the action while the lever was brought up. After those first couple of boxes of ammo, I just reloaded that brass, and it worked just fine. I don't think I reloaded the brass more than two or three times, and I was using the gun just to hunt. I ended up selling the rifle to another friend who didn't reload. It was for his wife to hunt with. He knew I had some ammo issues, and tried it with his own factory stuff, and never had an issue, so we made the sale happen.

What I "think" was going on, is that the case was slammed backward on firing - a good deal more than it ought to have been. The neck portion moved forward to fill the chamber. And, the slight "spring" in the action, found in most lever guns was all taken up. That's my idea at least. I think the rims were a good .010 thinner than they ought to have been, maybe that, with a more generous cut for the rim in the chamber made things sort of so-so. Dunno, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Kazi »

Thanx Reese-Mo that's interesting info. I was wondering if the Rossi will be able to shoot the Hornady 30-30 Lever-evolution FTX just fine or do I need to modify the OEM follower (suppose it will be the plastic one) ? Have seen somewhere that someone had to drill a hole in the front of the follower to allow for straight feeding of the sharper gummy tips ?
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Reese-Mo »

That ones beyong my experience. I shot speer 170 flat nose
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Kazi »

Kazi wrote:Thanx Reese-Mo that's interesting info. I was wondering if the Rossi will be able to shoot the Hornady 30-30 Lever-evolution FTX just fine or do I need to modify the OEM follower (suppose it will be the plastic one) ? Have seen somewhere that someone had to drill a hole in the front of the follower to allow for straight feeding of the sharper gummy tips ?

This is where I have seen it , a post by "pricedo"
https://www.rossi-rifleman.com/viewtopi ... ion#p19529
"3) the factory red plastic mag follower has a concave dimple in the middle.......this is for pointed Hornady LeveRevolution ammo......if it is replaced by a metal follower without a dimple you might have trouble with cartridge log jams in the mag tube if you're using the Hornady LeveRevolution ammo."
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

Found out that SAAMI use 42000 and CIP use 46412 for max pressure in the 30/30. Would Previ load differently for different markets?

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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Reese-Mo »

Without lookin myself..... Are those numbers PSI, CUP, LUP, etc... it matters. PSI and CUP numbers will be different, but the pressure is the same.
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Archer »

Ohio3Wheels wrote:Found out that SAAMI use 42000 and CIP use 46412 for max pressure in the 30/30. Would Previ load differently for different markets?

Make smoke,
I don't think the issues I had with Prvi were pressure related. The Factory ammo didn't stick regardless of what manufacturer it was from and the Prvi brass only stuck after being reloaded a time or two. That same reload data was used with Remington, Winchester and Federal brass without any problems.

I put the issues down to the Prvi brass.

With regards to the differences in CIP vs. SAAMI. Note a couple three things:
1) Just because the MAXIMUM pressure level is X do NOT expect that factory ammunition will be loaded to that limit. It should not be loaded in excess of that limit but there's nothing that says it has to be loaded to that level and depending on the component choices it may need to be loaded quite a bit lighter than max for a variety of reasons. (Best accuracy? weather extremes? expected to be used in weapons of questionable quality (Look at the .45-70 factory levels for example or the fact that a lot of mil-surp weapons from WWI or WWII time frame may have a wide range of bore dimensions or wear and tear or even questionable metallurgy. A particular bullet construction may require a reduced charge to avoid pressure increases: Barnes copper construction TSX or TTSX for example.)

2) The manufacturer has little to no control over where their ammo may end up. Expect them to load the ammo to the spec they have chosen where most of their product is expected to be used OR the one for the region where they are operating their manufacturing facility. They MIGHT switch it up for a specific contract but they probably aren't going to specify exactly what the expected pressure is. That's going to vary too much depending on the environment and not too many folks are going to try and measure it anyway. People are going to be much more interested in the velocity and test barrel length AND even that's going to vary with environmental conditions, tightness and smoothness of the bore, how much freebore is in the barrel, whether ANY of the components or raw materials have changed or not, etc..

3) As long as your firearm is in good shape it shouldn't matter if the ammo is manufactured to CIP or SAAMI maxes. Both should be safe for modern firearms. SAAMI may be a bit more conservative because of the litigious nature of the U.S. but either should be fine for modern firearms in good shape. IF you are working with a firearm of questionable quality then it is on you to make adjustments either toning down the ammo, retiring the gun or making the gun safe to use with full pressure ammo.
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Re: Rio Grande 30-30 ammo

Post by Archer »

Reese-Mo wrote:Without lookin myself..... Are those numbers PSI, CUP, LUP, etc... it matters. PSI and CUP numbers will be different, but the pressure is the same.
The SAAMI PSI and CUP numbers are the same pressure limit or should be once you convert.
The CIP numbers are internally consistent whether they are Kg/cm^2 or PSI.

The SAAMI and CIP numbers (using the same units) will NOT always be the same numbers. SAAMI has a reputation for lowering pressure limits for certain calibers to accommodate imported or antique firearms that may not be in perfect condition or that may have generous manufacturing tolerances, etc.. For example SAAMI often assumes pressure limits based on early Mausers or the Springfield Trap Door action or firearms that may have been around for 75 to 130 years or so.

CIP has a reputation in the U.S. that is perhaps not deserved for setting pressure limits a little higher than SAAMI. While this may be true when it comes to antique cartridges where they assume you will download for a weapon that's 100+ years old compared to modern production it isn't always true for cartridges developed in the U.S..

In general the limits used by both CIP and SAAMI should be safe for modern firearms and outside of cartridges that have been around forever the number should be very close.
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