Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by Ranch Dog »

Archer wrote:Out of curiosity what are your normal mold / die tolerances?
I'm sure there's empirical fitting factors for lead alloy and mold materials that compensate for CTE effects.

Most of the aircraft companies I've worked for use .X =+/- .10 (once in a while .060 or .050), .XX =+/- .030, .XXX =+/- .010, .XXXX = =+/- .0005 on drawings.
An outfit like Lee uses -.001/+.003". NOE is -.000/+.001. The last two designs that I had Lee cut were spot on.

The above are bullet drawings, not cavity drawings that the actual molds blocks are cut from. If you use a bullet drawing to cut a mold block, your bullets will drop under size. Many people just add .001" to everything but by doing that you will never see the bullet you drew. The software I'm using will figure out the cavity drawing based on the alloy you want to cast from, it makes the final design effort a whole lot easier.
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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by klr »

In comparing the SAAMI chamber dimensions to my chamber drawing I noticed differences in Base to Shoulder and Neck dimensions.

So I loaded a 150gr jacketed bullet with a full-power charge of 4064 and then measured the fired case.
Results are:
Base to shoulder = 1.458
Keeping the 2.095 max length, that would change the neck to .513. I measured my impact cast again and that looks about right.
Also, I don't know if this is significant enough to matter, but my bore is .301 and groove is .3085


I'm not so sure about the .309 max diameter. I've been shooting .311 sized bullets my son gave me and they chamber fine. So I grabbed 3 RD165gr bullets and sized to .311. Neck sized my brass and ran a Lyman M die in to expand slightly and flare the case for a cast bullet. I then took the following measurements:

ID of brass after M die = .309
Neck thickness of brass = .009 -.011 All brass is Remington once-fired. Most measurements were on the lower end of the range.
O.D. Neck of brass with seated RD bullet = .330-.331
I seated these deep so they wouldn't engage the rifling and they drop in with no pressure. I just slid them in with my fingers. Maybe the bullet is sizing down slightly on seating?

Would it be better to spec the mold at .311 and I can size down if I get brass with thicker necks? Or neck turn the brass.

Are you getting that “no good deed goes unpunished” feeling yet? :)

Thanks!
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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by Ranch Dog »

I will be able to get back on this later today. I've been tuning up three other designs in my free time and wanted to complete them first.
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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by Zippidydoodah »

I understand your statement that every caliber needs its own bullet. Nice drawings to explain it also. Thanks for enlighten us old diehards that use one molds for all similar diameter bullets.
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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by Ranch Dog »

klr wrote:In comparing the SAAMI chamber dimensions to my chamber drawing I noticed differences in Base to Shoulder and Neck dimensions.

So I loaded a 150gr jacketed bullet with a full-power charge of 4064 and then measured the fired case.
Results are:
Base to shoulder = 1.458
Keeping the 2.095 max length, that would change the neck to .513. I measured my impact cast again and that looks about right.
Also, I don't know if this is significant enough to matter, but my bore is .301 and groove is .3085
Okay, let''s start small. There is something wrong with both the base to shoulder measurement and the maximum case length.

The SAAMI Spec for the cartridge base to shoulder is 1.4405" vs. your 1.458". The spec for the chamber is base to shoulder is 1.4548".

The spec for the the case length is 2.039" and the chamber 2.083" vs. your 2.095" :?:

I'm gon'na hang up here until we sort this out.

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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by klr »

Maybe it's my measurement method/tools. Here are pictures of how I'm getting the measurements. I'm using a head band magnifier, but the shoulder measurement is tough to determine exactly where the shoulder begins.

Both pieces of brass were fired in my rifle with a full-powered charge.

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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by Ranch Dog »

Okay, thanks for the pictures. In the post that I quoted, it seemed that you are talking about your brass. What you measurement is in your bottom picture is the chamber length. With an impression, like you have taken using the cartridge, chamber length is case length + step.
Keeping the 2.095 max length, that would change the neck to .513
This is another thing that threw me off track. This is not a "neck" measurement. It is the case neck plus the chamber's step.

Here is what I drew for your case. In this drawing, the greater length on the left normally reflects the cartridge overall length but I changed it to reflect chamber length so it matches your impression.

In order to make this as accurate as possible I would like to very the length of the neck. This is done as a simple linear length, not following the neck's angle. In other words it is two dimensional, just like it is represented in the drawing. What I do when I measure a case is mark it with a fine Sharpe or pencil. That way I'm not changing the exact reference if I come back to measure something else. I would also like to verify the case diameter that is circled.

Image

This should be a good representation of you chamber. If you see any differences, please note them. The two measurements that I asked for above might change the angles for the shoulder/neck and step that are represented in this image.

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No sense on pondering the bullet until these are finalized. What happens once these to drawings are correct is the software will generate a bullet that fits the chamber. This generated bullet needs a bit of editing as it is simply filling the throat with lead. This is were it is a bit weird, your chamber from your impression, doesn't have any leade. It simply goes from step to the bore/groove. This is also why I don't think a .311" will not work in this application. The step is going to size to .3085" (think of it as a sizing ring) immediately.
Are you getting that “no good deed goes unpunished” feeling yet? :)
No, not yet. This is a slow process. I should have just started a bit different. As long as you hang in, so will I.
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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by klr »

Thanks, things are getting clearer for me now. The shoulder diameter circled in red is .403 on my piece of brass. The .127 shoulder step and .443 neck dimensions are correct as close as I can measure.

The chamber drawing looks good. Just need to adjust for the .403 shoulder dimension.

Thanks for clearing up the diameter issue. It makes perfect sense. Should I buy a .308 sizing die and hone it to .03085 for a perfect fit, or would a .309 be better? I've honed the die for my old Mosin rifle and it's not a big deal.

Thanks!
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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by Ranch Dog »

Hang on with the dies. I work on this stuff early in the morning when it's quite around here. Let's see how the diameters work out.

What kind of bullet weight were you hoping for?
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Re: Developing/Choosing a Hunting Bullet for a Win 30-30

Post by klr »

Ranch Dog wrote:Hang on with the dies. I work on this stuff early in the morning when it's quite around here. Let's see how the diameters work out.

What kind of bullet weight were you hoping for?
Will do. As to bullet weight, I assumed it would be something similar to your other 30-30 bullets around 165gr. I figure anything from 150 - 175? I'm going to be hunting small whitetail deer.
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