Pyrodex loads

[aragornelessar86]

My pleasure, NavyDoc. I plan to start loading some BP for my 92 in the next year or so as well, so it was research I was gonna need to do at some point anyway. Besides, I figured I owed it to you for the earlier misinformation. Let us know what you come up with!

[NavyDoc76-80]

More food for thought, you may have come across this discussion.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... Pyrodex-RS

[Moon Tree]

Interesting discussion Doc. I've read a bunch of it to get caught up and I have a couple of observations, as a gray beard of muzzle loading. As in shooting them since before the invention of pyrodex gray beard. LOL

First, Rider makes what is probably the most important point. There is not a single round you can buy today that wasn't loaded at some point in black powder. And there is certainly nothing loaded today that's bigger in diameter or weight of projectile than what they use to shoot out of martial muzzle loaders. Which leads to this.

How many examples of exploded barrel muzzle loaders have you ever seen? I'm guessing not many if any. And if you have seen a picture of one, it was likely a VERY old gun and the steel used to make it was most likely the cause of the failure.

Here is the thing, and trust me, I have done it as proof of concept to doubters, you can double or more, the maximum load of powder in a modern muzzle loader with black powder, put on a cap, let her rip and watch the smoke show, then reload the gun with the max load and never be able to tell the difference in recoil. Once you get past a certain point, the powder just gets pushed out the barrel and burns off harmlessly. It's is NOT possible to overload a black powder.

And to be honest, I'm not sure it's possible to blow one up even with a heavy powder charge and overweight projectile. I can not TELL ya how many ramrods I've seen shot out the end of muzzle loaders over the years. I mean, if you can put a 120 grains of BP, a 435 grain maxi bullet AND a 3 fool long fiberglass and brass ramrod down range, borrow a ramrod from the guy beside ya and continue on with the turkey shoot, the gun probably can't be hurt by black powder! LOL

My point is, you can NOT overload a 38/357 or any other pistol round with black powder or pyrodex for that matter since it is designed specifically to replicate black powder performance.

As to gap. YES, you should always insure that the projectiles is snugged up against the powder. HowEVER, I have seen on several occasions at black power shoots where we would be shooting hundreds of times and the breech would become so fouled that the bullet wouldn't seat. Which is easy to tell by the notch you always mark on your ramrod. ;~)

But at that point, it is either stop shooting, set the gun aside till there was no chance it might fire by it's self and then try to extract the ball with a puller. Something that works less often than it works on a dirty gun, by the way. OR, you can put a cap on it, tell the guys next to ya to step back and strike er off.

Which one do you suppose happened most often? I can tell what I've always done. LOL

By the way, the notch on the ramrod is not for safety. As someone else mentioned, it's to insure accuracy. Over seating and under seating both effect accuracy just as as much as they do with hand loads. The reason guys really ram home the round is so that when it counts you don't OVER pack the charge. You can always bump the ramrod against a tree to seat it deeper, but once it goes too far, you can't take it back. SO...when the gun is clean and you load it the first time, you ram er home, bump it against a tree, mark the rod for reference and that is where it goes every time after that.

And the point to all that is, shooting heavy loads of both powder and projectiles for all the years I've been around it, I have never once seen a gun damaged, little on exploded by over packing, under packing, shooting a 1000 grains of ramrod and bullet...gap or anything else. Now that's not to say that it can't, but only that I've never seen a failure because of a gap. And I've seen guys shoot some with some gaps that scared me. Like 1 inch or more! ;~0

Of course, I'm talking about heavy barreled muzzle loaders for the most part, but there have been a few old Brown Bess types in that as well.

I can also tell ya this as a little historical reference. In the early days of this country, it was a common practice for frontiersmen to get caught out by multiple and hostile native Americans. These frontiersmen developed a method of loading while running...as you do when someone starts slinging dozens of arrows at ya...by pouring a bunch of powder down the barrel, dropping a bullet down the barrel, bouncing the butt against the ground to seat the powder into the breach so it would fire, stick on a cap or load the tray and then turn and fire.

Not sure there wasn't a pretty big gap most of the time with that method and it supposedly saved a many a life. ;~)

By the way, I have a 24 grain and a 28 grain screw in measure from my pistol flask. I use one or the other depending of if I'm shooting 160 grain round ball or 220 conical bullets out of my New Model Army 44. I'll dig them out and see what they look like in a 38 and 357 and let ya know. Of course, my pistol flask is full of 3 fg, but the volume should be the same...which is as you point out, how black powder is measured.

But personally, I like Rider's idea. Just put a magnum primer in it, fill the freaking things till you barley got room for a bullet and let er rip! ;~)

By the way, did I mention I thought you guys were having an interesting discussion? Sorry for the rambling. I don't get a word in edge wise with the wife, so I'm taking it out on you guys. ;~)

Jdb, I like your logic and I'm not disputing it. I'm just accounting my stupidity.
Around about '91 I had the to go-head to write an article for Muzzleloader Magazine on turkey hunting with a smoke pole. The gun I would be using was a T/C New Englander with a 12 guage barrel, no choke. I needed to develop load with a tight turkey pattern out to 25+ yards. I had 5 days left until I was to head to Alabama to meet up with my guide.

I was at the range ( friends back yard range) frantically pouring powder down the barrel while switching out powder cards, shot wadding and even using modern shotgun wadding to tighten up the grouping.

This was over 20 years ago some my memory is not completely clear on the minute details. I do know I was using at least 110 grains of powder that I'm pretty sure was FFg. I was using a new fangled ( at the time ram rod) that was said to indestructible. It was one you could tie in knots and had a big handle on the end.

If memory serves I was using 1 1/4 ounce of #5 shot.

Well in my haste, I left the ramrod in the barrel. KABOOOM! The jar rattled my teeth. I heard shrapnel hitting the tin roof on a barn that was 45 degrees to my left and 50 yards away. Part of the indestructible ram rod was sticking out of the particle board back stop. The barrel was ine, but the wood stock was split at the grip. My shoulder was soar for a couple days and black and blue for over a week.

I called T/C and they said they had problems with the stock and sent my a synthetic via over night delivery.

No I didn't get a turkey on my hunt.

[Zippidydoodah]

Looking at your 38 special comparison loads BP and aa7, we could say since the velocities were similar, that the average pressure required was probably similar also. I'm still trying to understand the gap theory, ie, since BP burns slowly when in open, yet "explodes"(burns more rapidly than smokeless-bullseye) when confined.

[NavyDoc76-80]

Zippidydodah's ,
Regarding pressures , I found this old thread that no other then ranch dog was apart of and made clear how to convert C.U.P. and Psi, within the thread is a good discussion, mathematically how one may look at a known velocity and bullet weight to come up with C.U.P., but it was conjecture. A known reliable chart would be a good place to start, though I am sure the math is out there for doing your own calculations.
http://www.shootersforum.com/handloadin ... art-2.html
If I find it and can make sense of it by practicing a little, I will be happy to share.
Last thought on the gap issue. I picked this thought up. With a gap, the bullet acts more like an obstruction then a projectile.

[NavyDoc76-80]

Ok, I know this is over the top now but low and behold within the thread last mentioned was/is a link about the Crowley methods for calculating pressures:
http://www.shootersforum.com/handloadin ... anual.html
All that said, if Pyrodex is loaded properly, pressures is a none issue in a modern weapon, in a metallic cartridge.

[Ohio3Wheels]

I'm still trying to understand the gap theory, ie, since BP burns slowly when in open, yet "explodes"(burns more rapidly than smokeless-bullseye) when confined.

Keep in mind that Black Powder is an explosive hie smokeless is a propellant. It is also in some people view a passing fad .

[aragornelessar86]

Sure looks like that Lyman load book is the best bet.

[NavyDoc76-80]

Yup.....

[NavyDoc76-80]

Black powder vs. smokeless
Video by Hickok45, well done presentation of the two and demonstration of burn rate near the end.