Pyrodex loads

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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by akuser47 »

Sounds good keep us posted.
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by aragornelessar86 »

NavyDoc76-80 wrote:
NavyDoc76-80 wrote:https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Food for thought, .
aragor, please see what Hodgons has to say about that and let me know what you think.
Interesting. I've been out of black powder shooting for a few years, so it looks like things have changed. When I was shooting BP a lot I stayed away from substitutes because of the additional complexity of measuring the charges by weight to confirm the volumes. I guess that just proves the old rule of making sure to read the instructions.
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by NavyDoc76-80 »

BCrider wrote:
My Rossi is chambered in .357 so the powder charge is rather limited for room. It works out to around 24 to 25gns of powder. But even so shooting this same round from the handgun does show that it recoils pretty much like a proper .38Spl. So the round is no slouch. Bullets for these are 130gn LRNFP just because they are somewhat less expensive than 158's and I go through a LOT of them. The round nose makes them feed like butter through the Rossi as well.

BCrider,
your above statement is killing me. I have read and re-read this thread and the differences have really got me wanting to know how could we be so far apart. I would like to dig deeper. Two parts of this equation that I would like to compare is what finished OAL you are using and the length of the bullet you are using. The ones (357) I put together last night I max'ed out in length at 1.59, none less then 1.55, my bullet length (158gr) measures .717. Given the length of this bullet and the max allowed length of a 357, I am actually crimping in the cone area of the bullet. I can only assume I am filling much more area of the case.
Here is some of my measurements used:
Case length 1.29
Max OAL 1.59
Bullet length (out of the box) .717
After charge, gap to top of case .292 (calculated to give a light 1/8" compression)
Seating depth, approx. .417 (.417-.125=.292)
Let me know what you think
Dave M
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by NavyDoc76-80 »

aragornelessar86 wrote:
NavyDoc76-80 wrote:
NavyDoc76-80 wrote:https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Food for thought, .
aragor, please see what Hodgons has to say about that and let me know what you think.
Interesting. I've been out of black powder shooting for a few years, so it looks like things have changed. When I was shooting BP a lot I stayed away from substitutes because of the additional complexity of measuring the charges by weight to confirm the volumes. I guess that just proves the old rule of making sure to read the instructions.
aragornelessar86,
I appreciate your reply. What at face value should be simple, their is always complexity to get it right. Pyrodex I think has real potential, we all just need to weed through the facts and the myths. The more I play with this powder the more I like it. I think it's biggest drawback is the care needed for the brass. I wish I was a metallurgist and could calculate the strength of the brass in different stages, whether immediately cared for after fired, or left alone and really see what's going on. I am suspicious if it's not all about esthetics and not about brass deterioration.
Dave M
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by aragornelessar86 »

Not sure if you're familiar with it, but the Muzzleloading Forum Would probably have some good info on all this.
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by NavyDoc76-80 »

aragornelessar86 wrote:Not sure if you're familiar with it, but the Muzzleloading Forum Would probably have some good info on all this.
If your a member, could you do a search for the use of Pyrodex and let me know. Not sure muzzle loading is a cross over for metallic cartridge loading but am willing to learn more if it would shed some light on the subject, especially data for different bullet weights in metallic straight walled cartridges. Pyrodex has been around since the mid 70's, there must be written experiences and data out there without starting from scratch.
Dave M
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by jdb »

Interesting discussion Doc. I've read a bunch of it to get caught up and I have a couple of observations, as a gray beard of muzzle loading. As in shooting them since before the invention of pyrodex gray beard. LOL

First, Rider makes what is probably the most important point. There is not a single round you can buy today that wasn't loaded at some point in black powder. And there is certainly nothing loaded today that's bigger in diameter or weight of projectile than what they use to shoot out of martial muzzle loaders. Which leads to this.

How many examples of exploded barrel muzzle loaders have you ever seen? I'm guessing not many if any. And if you have seen a picture of one, it was likely a VERY old gun and the steel used to make it was most likely the cause of the failure.

Here is the thing, and trust me, I have done it as proof of concept to doubters, you can double or more, the maximum load of powder in a modern muzzle loader with black powder, put on a cap, let her rip and watch the smoke show, then reload the gun with the max load and never be able to tell the difference in recoil. Once you get past a certain point, the powder just gets pushed out the barrel and burns off harmlessly. It's is NOT possible to overload a black powder.

And to be honest, I'm not sure it's possible to blow one up even with a heavy powder charge and overweight projectile. I can not TELL ya how many ramrods I've seen shot out the end of muzzle loaders over the years. I mean, if you can put a 120 grains of BP, a 435 grain maxi bullet AND a 3 fool long fiberglass and brass ramrod down range, borrow a ramrod from the guy beside ya and continue on with the turkey shoot, the gun probably can't be hurt by black powder! LOL

My point is, you can NOT overload a 38/357 or any other pistol round with black powder or pyrodex for that matter since it is designed specifically to replicate black powder performance.

As to gap. YES, you should always insure that the projectiles is snugged up against the powder. HowEVER, I have seen on several occasions at black power shoots where we would be shooting hundreds of times and the breech would become so fouled that the bullet wouldn't seat. Which is easy to tell by the notch you always mark on your ramrod. ;~)

But at that point, it is either stop shooting, set the gun aside till there was no chance it might fire by it's self and then try to extract the ball with a puller. Something that works less often than it works on a dirty gun, by the way. OR, you can put a cap on it, tell the guys next to ya to step back and strike er off.

Which one do you suppose happened most often? I can tell what I've always done. LOL

By the way, the notch on the ramrod is not for safety. As someone else mentioned, it's to insure accuracy. Over seating and under seating both effect accuracy just as as much as they do with hand loads. The reason guys really ram home the round is so that when it counts you don't OVER pack the charge. You can always bump the ramrod against a tree to seat it deeper, but once it goes too far, you can't take it back. SO...when the gun is clean and you load it the first time, you ram er home, bump it against a tree, mark the rod for reference and that is where it goes every time after that.

And the point to all that is, shooting heavy loads of both powder and projectiles for all the years I've been around it, I have never once seen a gun damaged, little on exploded by over packing, under packing, shooting a 1000 grains of ramrod and bullet...gap or anything else. Now that's not to say that it can't, but only that I've never seen a failure because of a gap. And I've seen guys shoot some with some gaps that scared me. Like 1 inch or more! ;~0

Of course, I'm talking about heavy barreled muzzle loaders for the most part, but there have been a few old Brown Bess types in that as well.

I can also tell ya this as a little historical reference. In the early days of this country, it was a common practice for frontiersmen to get caught out by multiple and hostile native Americans. These frontiersmen developed a method of loading while running...as you do when someone starts slinging dozens of arrows at ya...by pouring a bunch of powder down the barrel, dropping a bullet down the barrel, bouncing the butt against the ground to seat the powder into the breach so it would fire, stick on a cap or load the tray and then turn and fire.

Not sure there wasn't a pretty big gap most of the time with that method and it supposedly saved a many a life. ;~)

By the way, I have a 24 grain and a 28 grain screw in measure from my pistol flask. I use one or the other depending of if I'm shooting 160 grain round ball or 220 conical bullets out of my New Model Army 44. I'll dig them out and see what they look like in a 38 and 357 and let ya know. Of course, my pistol flask is full of 3 fg, but the volume should be the same...which is as you point out, how black powder is measured.

But personally, I like Rider's idea. Just put a magnum primer in it, fill the freaking things till you barley got room for a bullet and let er rip! ;~)

By the way, did I mention I thought you guys were having an interesting discussion? Sorry for the rambling. I don't get a word in edge wise with the wife, so I'm taking it out on you guys. ;~)
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by NavyDoc76-80 »

jdb,
I really appreciate your sense of humor and your time spent sharing your thoughts. And like you, I think BCrider is spot on as well and appreciate his input. And heck yes, anytime you need to ramble, just come back to this topic anytime and let her rip.....thanks again.
Dave M
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by aragornelessar86 »

So I can't find anything on the ML forums, but after an hour or so on Google it looks like Pyro should be able to be loaded exactly like BP, and Lyman makes a BP reloading manual that includes metallic cartridge loads and is apparently the definitive source for load data.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publ ... powder.php
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Re: Pyrodex loads

Post by NavyDoc76-80 »

aragornelessar86 wrote:So I can't find anything on the ML forums, but after an hour or so on Google it looks like Pyro should be able to be loaded exactly like BP, and Lyman makes a BP reloading manual that includes metallic cartridge loads and is apparently the definitive source for load data.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/publ ... powder.php
Aragor, I don't have too many friends that would spend over an hour of their time researching for me, so let me say thanks first. I believe this book/manual is an investment I need to make. If nothing else it should make for an interesting read. I'm going to see if I can get lucky with a book store locally going out of business and see what they have. I will get one regardless of where I do and let ya know, thanks again!
Dave M
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Let us tenderly and kindly cherish, therefore, the means of knowledge. Let us dare to read, think, speak and write.
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