Pyrodex loads

[NavyDoc76-80]

Model 52,


I appreciate you sharing on this subject, your statement that Pyrodex was never meant to be compressed is a first for me with all the reading and research I have done. The load data on the Hodgdon site was available as late as June. Wished I had printed it out. That data, though I don't know when first published and or tested, could be found as links from various forums discussing this subject. When I couldn't find it on the site myself I tried one of these old links but came up not available.

Ohio3Wheels,

You mentioned the result of a non compressed load will cause a "ringed chamber". I've seen that term used, it does not sound good, but I don't know what that means. Could you describe further please.

[NavyDoc76-80]

rman,
If I found some Unique I would feel like I just won the mega lottery. I got ahold of a pound of AA#7 last month and it's almost gone. I've had Bullseye and Unique on order since May and who knows when it may become available. I've even seen where Pryodex P is less and less available. I've got four pounds of it, so I'm trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with it. My test loads worked fine but I really want to be able to set myself up at the range for collecting data for its true usefulness. The big question, can I use it for small game, and at what distances. Today is Tuesday, I'm hoping Thursday to start this little experiment.

Keep us posted NavyDoc.

rman, just found out that my buddy with the chrono can't do it tomorrow and will need to wait till next Thursday before I can do any serious data collecting. I can only hope....

[Ohio3Wheels]

Ohio3Wheels,

You mentioned the result of a non compressed load will cause a "ringed chamber". I've seen that term used, it does not sound good, but I don't know what that means. Could you describe further please.[/quote]


The term as I've always understood it is a outward bulge in the chamber wall that goes all the way around the chamber. Depending on the severity they can range from little notice to hard extraction. I've seen 2 examples both terribly abused replicas a rolling block in 45-70 and a SAA in 45 Colt. Both from the bad old days of questionable replicas and to be charitable some people shouldn't be allowed around machinery. Both showed extraction problems neither showed visible signs externally. No doubt had he continued he would have wound up wearing parts of one of them.

Curt makin' smoke and raising my carbon foot print one cartridge AR a time

[NavyDoc76-80]

https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Food for thought, look what I found from Hodgdon, and what they have to say about compression.

[rman]

Interesting NavyDoc. Thanks for the link.

[Ohio3Wheels]

https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Food for thought, look what I found from Hodgdon, and what they have to say about compression.

Good info for anyone venturing in that direction. I find the admonition to avoid any air space and use light compression to pretty much follow traditional BP practices for cartridge loads.

Curt
makin smoke and raising my carbon foot print one cartridge at a time

[NavyDoc76-80]

WOW! I know that everyone raves about it but it's nice to know that it's so long lived.

The black powder rounds I'm using for cowboy shooting are actually loaded using Pyrodex P. I went that way based on what folks 'round here told me that they were using. The Pyrodex is supposed to be a little more compatible with the regular wax style bullet lubes where proper black powder will gum up due to the petroleum products used in most bullet lubes.

But the Pyrodex really messes up the brass. And it produces a more brownish smoke instead of the pure white smoke from black powder. So one of these days I'm going to try boiling out the lube from some bullets or cast my own and lube them with a proper black powder friendly lube using Crisco and beeswax or olive oil and beeswax and load with proper black powder.

Pistol caliber cartridges should use 3fg powder. Although for bigger rounds like .45Colt it's on the edge and 2fg is another option.

My Rossi is chambered in .357 so the powder charge is rather limited for room. It works out to around 24 to 25gns of powder. But even so shooting this same round from the handgun does show that it recoils pretty much like a proper .38Spl. So the round is no slouch. Bullets for these are 130gn LRNFP just because they are somewhat less expensive than 158's and I go through a LOT of them. The round nose makes them feed like butter through the Rossi as well.

If the same is done in a .45Colt case you're looking at up around 40gns of powder and a 200 to 250 gn bullet. Now THAT is going to make itself felt! Figure on it kicking back like a good solid 1911. Or a .44Spl if you've shot any of those.

The important thing for both safety and consistency which leads to accuracy is to be sure you run a compressed charge. Black and subs needs to be loaded with no air gap. If the powder IS loose with a slight gap it's not the end of the world but you will notice that they thump harder and more like a smokeless round compared to a properly compressed load even though the compressed load has more powder. And it gets worse with larger air spaces. Which is why muzzle loaders panic if the ball sticks a few inches before landing on the powder.

AND of course there's the need to clean the guns pretty much that day or at most the next day. If you have to leave them overnight a spritz of spray Ballistol down the bore isn't a bad idea. But don't use a petroleum oil or it'll work with the BP or Pyrodex fouling to gum up and be hard to clean.

Cleaning the Rossi out after shooting black powder is actually pretty easy. I mount it upside down and action open in the work stand. Then I start running a snug fitting round jag and soapy water soaked patches through the bore. The first couple of patches come out tarry black. But generally by patch #4 or #5 the patches are coming through clean. At that point I run a dry patch to dry the bore then an oil patch and a final dry patch and the job is done. I'll then reach up into the open action with a damp rag folded around a popsicle stick or similar and wipe around the nose of the bolt and around the chamber mouth. This is followed up with a oiled toothbrush. Or in this most recent job with a spritz and brush around with Fluid Film.

All this SHOULD only take about10 minutes including exterior wipe down. But I usually find something else to fuss around with as well so figure 20 minutes. And as always it's not a bad idea to spend one or two minutes of that cleaning and puttering time to go over the screws and make sure none are trying to jump ship.

The brass is best treated to being dumped into a plastic jar of soapy water right at the range. The longer you wait the worse the Pyrodex stains the brass. Black powder isn't as bad but it's still worth having a jar of soapy water to dump 'em into right away.

So why go to all this trouble? Well it's fun to be a bit different. And since black powder is the same today as it was for the last 500 years it's a way of seeing just what our ancestors saw when THEY pulled the trigger.

BCrider, I pulled this over to this thread for continuity of subject.
I have made arrangements for this Thursday to get to the range with my Pyrodex loads and friends chronograph. Hope to have some data to share then, thanks for above right up.

[BCRider]

Just to clarify the quote of my post above. Since the post was about the Pyrodex cartridges used in my rifle and a few in my handguns please note that in each case where I said "black powder" I actually meant Pyrodex when used in connection with the Rossi rifle shooting and cleaning. In reading through it again I can see where some might find themselves asking "so is he using Pyrodex like he started out saying or black powder like he keeps saying?". Sorry for any confusion.

[NavyDoc76-80]

BC, was wondering, you state for the 357 round you use around 24 to 25 grains of powder. Are you measuring by way of a Lee CC measuring scoops? Or similar? Or fill and compress (in a calculated way). The recipe I have is for 158grn over 1cc which is suppose to weigh 12.1 grains, for a 38sp round. This is using Pyrodex. Black powder is said to weigh 15.9 grains at 1cc. Given the 357 you load at 24 to 25 grains with a lighter bullet of 130 grain to me is a testament that you can't "over charge" a black powder round.
With the clean up, I am intending when I get to the range to bring two plastic containers, one with a 25% mixture of vinegar, water and a little dish soap to collect the spent shells in, then I plan to put them in fresh water before I leave then a final rinse when I get home. Am I inline with your thinking and experience?

[BCRider]

OK, I just went and put proper 3fg black powder into a .357 casing and after tapping it once to settle the powder I kicked out enough off the top to produce the 1/8 inch clearance. The weight of the proper black powder in the casing filled to that level was 23.8gns. So call it 24gns.

I've got a few Lee Dippers so I poured the powder into a 1.6cc and just about filled it. So likely I'm looking at 1.5cc's or a hair over.

Now my 130gn dainty little bullets only stick into the casing by a hair less than 1/4 inch. So loaded up to 1/8 below the mouth I'm using 1/8 inch of compression. For BP that's fine. For Pyrodex it might be a trifle high given what it says in that link. I may load more to around 5/32 below the mouth in the future for Pyrodex. Which means I'll be down closer to a 22 to 23gn volume.

Now given the 1.5'ish CC volume I can't see the extra 28gns of lead taking up a .5cc worth of room. So I'm thinking that you need to run more powder or some sort of filler to be sure you're not leaving an airgap.

What would be nice is to find an 11/32 drill with a flat end. Or grind off the conical part to get a flat and square end. Eyeball is close enough. You can then use this as a powder plunger to check the case depth to the powder level. Measuring the amount of the drill shank that fits in the casing will let you work out what the proper lightly compressed charge should be. Heck, with the drill shank as the plunger you can "ram" it to a light compression and see EXACTLY how much it takes to let the bullet seat perfectly.

And you're 100% right that there is simply no way to overcharge a straight wall casing of ANY handgun round. .45Colt is the largest of the old original calibers and it's sized to take the full case of BP. And let's not forget that .38Spl was originally intended as a black powder round. I don't know if much or any were sold loaded with BP but it was during that cross over time. And for .357 we're only looking at another very few grains of powder courtesy of that extra 0.10 length.

We could even load black or Pyrodex into things like .460S&W Mag or .454 Casull or even the trash bin size .500S&W cases and never even come within 1/3 of the peak pressure such guns are designed to withstand. And in fact they would be "mouse fart" loads from such firearms.

But with anything more than a minimal air gap we start seeing the pressures climb FAST. I would not want to be holding onto the 45-70 rifle that "only" has 35 grains of BP or Pyrodex in the casing and no filler. We're likely talking pipe bomb. And if it didn't split the barrel I'm betting it would be a close thing in some cases. Almost certainly it would be the end of a Springfield Trapdoor given that they aren't tolerant of higher pressures.

Obviously it would be hard to frag a .357 with the smaller charge even if there is an air gap. But good practices start with the small stuff, eh?