Pyrodex loads

[NavyDoc76-80]

I have almost no practical experience with the exception of a recipe I found that works for 38 special loads. To answer your last part, if you have let's say a 1/8 inch gap. You have two things going on, no compression and a gap. I have chosen a recipe that by my choice of bullet, volume of powder and COAL makes for a perfectly compressed finished round. Now, let's say I wanted to choose a different grain bullet. I'm still going to use the same volume of powder but the new bullet does not enter the cartridge as deep. This will create a gap I need to address. When that time comes I'm going to choose a filler, to fill the gap and allow compression, some may choose a wad made from bees wax which is said to also aid in lubrication and lessen the effects of fouling. The filler that I will use will be cream of wheat, it's easy to get and they say it smells good once fired. I've had another discussion on this forum suggesting something that to those whom never tried it didn't sound right, but you can fact check this, I'm not making this up. It's about choosing what works for you, example, some folks will eat Rocky Mountain Oysters, I prefer Eastern NC Sneads Ferry Salty oysters. Now about Pyrodex, it's not black powder and it's not smokeless. It's in a league by its own, but has similar characteristics of BP.
As far as the bad things that occur, it's all about pressures created that is the no no. Interesting part though about using BP or a substitute like Pyrodex, done correctly, it does not come close to the pressures that smokeless powder creates, and you really can't over charge a BP load that a modern metallic cartridge weapon couldn't handle. I've read because of that characteristic, some don't care about the volume of powder used, thus regardless of the bullet used, forget using a filler or wad, just add more BP until you get compression. I'm not there yet for personal experience, but maybe someday I will.

[Zippidydoodah]

My original question was more or less a Murphy's law- what if I left a gap and forgot to compress the bullet to the powder? Like you stated it doesn't produce as much pressure as smokeless, but what might happen? BP is considered an explosive I presume because it is easy to ignite, but isn't it slower burning than most pistol powders? I'm not looking forward to a Murphy's law situation, but once I forgot to put any powder in the old smokepole and had another problem to deal with. I try not to talk with anyone when loading now, especially if at a shooting range. Easily distracted. Ha

[rman]

This is a pretty intriguing idea NavyDoc. Pistol powder is scarce as hen's teeth in my area too. (And online, for that matter) I use a lot of W231/HP38 in .45 Auto and .357 loads for my Rossi 92, but I can't find it anywhere and my supply is getting low. I recently found 2 lbs of Unique and felt like an addict finding a fix. Unique is a great powder, but I hate how it runs through my powder measure. Before I had a powder measure, I made up brass dippers for different .38 Special loads and loaded it by volume. If I remember correctly, I used .380 Auto cases, soldered a wire handle on them, and then filed down the case mouth until they dropped the right amount. It's surprisingly accurate if you use a consistent routine for dipping and shaking off the excess powder. (I know... I reinvented the Lee dippers, but it seems like none of them drop exactly the amount I want to use.)

[NavyDoc76-80]

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.3.html
This link goes into it from from loading to cleaning

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... oads/page2
This link to a thread of those experimenting with Pyrodex


This YouTube link from a fellow who is part of Arkansas Shooters

Not trying to avoid your question regarding "what will happen"......we have to assume "the bad" will happen if compression is not proper. Then their is all the variables that always need to be thrown in such as weapon, bore strength, BP type, gap, etc I don't believe this is one of those urban myths that got started. It is to be taken serious. I'm curious as why you are persistent to know what will happen if done wrong verses the what do I need to do to make it right.
BP actually burns faster, much faster then smokeless. Saw a demonstration of it once to confirm it. The burn rate was much slower with the smokeless powder. The presenter pointed out, that what we see in a movie, when they pour the "black powder" on the ground to then reach the Powder kegs for the big kaboom, they usually show a slow burn for the excitement and anticipation, when in fact, an 8ft burn length was less then 2 seconds with the black powder. I believe that is why the compression is part of the ballistics for black powder. You want the energy focused at the path of least resistance ie: the bullet and not the casing.
Hope this helps, I was hoping some SASS and CAS members would have added their experience here.
As I find more info I will add it here. Circumstances have prevented me from shooting the 100 rounds I have loaded with Pyrodex , 38sp, 158gr, but let's hope I don't experience for myself what happens with weak or no compression when I finally do.

[NavyDoc76-80]

rman,
If I found some Unique I would feel like I just won the mega lottery. I got ahold of a pound of AA#7 last month and it's almost gone. I've had Bullseye and Unique on order since May and who knows when it may become available. I've even seen where Pryodex P is less and less available. I've got four pounds of it, so I'm trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with it. My test loads worked fine but I really want to be able to set myself up at the range for collecting data for its true usefulness. The big question, can I use it for small game, and at what distances. Today is Tuesday, I'm hoping Thursday to start this little experiment.

[NavyDoc76-80]

I've been thinking more about zippidydodah's obsession with the the question of "what will happen if" regarding a lack of compression. Some things just eat at us wanting to know, and for that individual it's important. I've been obsessed with the question of "can you over compress a load". Every statement on the amount of compression says that a 1/8" to3/16" compression is what you want. I've never seen the word "minimum" used so that seems then an exact amount to go by. So here lies the what if statement....what happens at 1/4" or even 5/16" compression. I don't know if a good black powder manual/ book would address this, so I hope to get to a good book store and see what I can find.

[Ohio3Wheels]

Gents, just a few thoughts on load compression and cartridge loads. By way of full disclosure I've never used Pyrodex and never intend to, but I've gone through a few pounds of black with my 40-65 Win Sharps. One of the first things you learn when loading black powder cartridges and also black powder front stuffers is air gaps between the powder charge and the projectile are a no no and will like result in a ringed chamber. I've never wanted to find pout if the grizzled old guys that taught me were right or wrong and now I've manage by hook and by crook and probably a lot of luck to become a grizzled old with out any damage from blown up guns through 40+ years of reloading.

Black powder and most if not all of its substitutes are explosives not propellants. I'm not what I'd call a black powder snob as a mater of fact I have a canister of Blackhorn 209 on the bench that I plan to try in 3 different cartridge as soon as I have all the needed components on hand. I plan to work up loads for the 40-65, the 45 Colt (pistol and rifle) and the 45-70. Stay tuned since 2 of the 3 are Rossi's the first reports will show up here.

One last thing, maybe urban legend, but I hear it enough to take at least a little caution Pyodex residue is said to be even more corrosive than black.

Curt
Makin' smoke and increasing my carbon foot print one cartridge at a time

[Zippidydoodah]

I have several BP long rifles and several BP pistols. I have read the Lyman BP book, and have very limited experience actually with them. My first shot ever(BP) was a buck so I count myself lucky. Right out of the box. It is hard to learn if you are doing anything wrong without someone more experienced helping you out. The books don't always tell you why not to do it or the consequences of doing it. Smokeless powder a little space no problem( several exceptions). I almost crush the bp powder when I load it; but just curious as to why the space since most has pressure limitations around 15-20,000 psi and have vent holes, etc . I want to be safe and avoid this type of problem just curious I guess.

[rman]

rman,
If I found some Unique I would feel like I just won the mega lottery. I got ahold of a pound of AA#7 last month and it's almost gone. I've had Bullseye and Unique on order since May and who knows when it may become available. I've even seen where Pryodex P is less and less available. I've got four pounds of it, so I'm trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with it. My test loads worked fine but I really want to be able to set myself up at the range for collecting data for its true usefulness. The big question, can I use it for small game, and at what distances. Today is Tuesday, I'm hoping Thursday to start this little experiment.

Keep us posted NavyDoc.

[Model 52]

There are two issues with pyrodex that probably made Hodgon leery about publishing cartridge data for it.

First, pyrodex tends to develop more pressure than black powder for comparable volume loads of comparable grades of pyrodex and black powder (such as "P" and "FFFg", or "RS" and "FFg"). It also weighs less than black powder, so there is always the potential for some moron to weigh out 70 grains of pyrodex thinking they want a load equivalent to 70 gains of BP, when the resulting load would be equivalent to about 95 grains of BP.

Second, Pyrodex never promoted compressing pyrodex in and instead recommended the level of powder come up level with the base of the bullet or wad. But many shooters were compressing it slightly in pursuit of greater accuracy, as they'd do with black powder.

Beyond that I've never liked pyrodex as it produces very hard fouling and is more corrosive than black powder. The former is not conducive to accuracy, even with a blow tube, and the latter never makes me happy when we're talking about a very expensive and nicely finished Sharps or 1885 High wall replica.